D&D 5E Difference between critical hits and automatic hits.

[tragicjones]

Disagree. It doesn't matter if a 19 is a critical hit if you still don't hit the required AC.

Only a 20 is an auto-hit.

I'm not sure I follow - the quoted text seems fairly explicit and unambiguous. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Tormyr]

I'm not sure I follow - the quoted text seems fairly explicit and unambiguous. Is there something I'm missing?

In the combat section under "Rolling 1 or 20" the PHB explicitly says that 20 is an automatic hit regardless of AC. It states that in addition, the hit is a critical hit. The Champion's text expands critical hits to 19 and eventually 18, but it makes no mention of automatic hits. You can definitely go either way on this. Critical hits being auto hits makes sense, but I don't think that is how the rules were written.

Here is the tweet back in July where Mearls said he thought the expanded criticals were auto hits, but even he was a bit nebulous about it, like he was going off of memory. This was a week after the Basic PHB came out.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487302292312305664

As for me, I don't have a Champion at my table, so this won't be an issue for a while.

 

[tragicjones]

In the combat section under "Rolling 1 or 20" the PHB explicitly says that 20 is an automatic hit regardless of AC. It states that in addition, the hit is a critical hit. The Champion's text expands critical hits to 19 and eventually 18, but it makes no mention of automatic hits. You can definitely go either way on this. Critical hits being auto hits makes sense, but I don't think that is how the rules were written.

The question of whether or not a critical can ever occur without an automatic hit does remain open. However, in the case of the Champion's Improved Critical, there is absolutely no vagueness, ambiguity, or room for interpretation: "your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

If a normal attacker rolls a 20, "the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit" (p. 194). This takes us to the Critical Hits section: "When you score a critical hit..." (p. 196).

If a Champion rolls a 19 or 20, they "score a critical hit." This takes us to the Critical Hits section, as above.

The "regardless of..." clause is there for emphasis and clarity. Functionally speaking, it's a redundant "step" that the Champion text skips. It's logically equivalent to say, "Attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 20."

 

[Tormyr]

The question of whether or not a critical can ever occur without an automatic hit does remain open. However, in the case of the Champion's Improved Critical, there is absolutely no vagueness, ambiguity, or room for interpretation: "your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

If a normal attacker rolls a 20, "the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit" (p. 194). This takes us to the Critical Hits section: "When you score a critical hit..." (p. 196).

If a Champion rolls a 19 or 20, they "score a critical hit." This takes us to the Critical Hits section, as above.

The "regardless of..." clause is there for emphasis and clarity. Functionally speaking, it's a redundant "step" that the Champion text skips. It's logically equivalent to say, "Attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 20."

I am a little confused comparing your first sentence to your last as to which position you are arguing for, but I think it is toward the 19 always hitting if you get a critical for a 19.

The differing interpretations start in the "Rolling 1 or 20" section. If it had instead read that "a 20 is a critical hit, it automatically hits and you roll double the damage dice", there would not be any ambiguity because it would define a critical hit as automatically hitting. Because it defined the 20 as automatically hittingand it is also a critical hit and sent the reader to a separate section to define a critical hit, it defined the critical hit as double damage dice only. So a champion's critical hit at 18 or 19 is double damage dice but does not necessarily hit (in my opinion).

Now, as I said at the beginning the requirements for this to even be an issue are ridiculously tight. You need a level 3 champion to attack with a bad stat for them (strength fighter using +0 or -1 dex attacking with a bow) against someone in +1 plate, a shield and a ring of protection (or something similarly rare/contrived). The chances of this coming up are exceedingly rare to non-existent.

As a DM, I look to the community for help with interpretation sometimes. This is what I knew was a corner case that could go either way and wanted to poll the community to see if my interpretation of this was at least agreed upon by some people and worked since I am relatively ignorant of the finer points of the rules in earlier versions which could give some indication of intent here.

Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate it.

EDIT: After re-reading the thread dd.stevenson 's idea of 3/4 is a much easier way of making the scenario come about.

 

[tragicjones]

I am a little confused comparing your first sentence to your last as to which position you are arguing for, but I think it is toward the 19 always hitting if you get a critical for a 19.

That is what I'm arguing, at least in the case of the Champion's Improved Critical. Sorry that wasn't clear.

So a champion's critical hit at 18 or 19 is double damage dice but does not necessarily hit (in my opinion).

A Champion rolling 18 or 19 scores a critical hit. The text isn't specifying what the damage would be if they hit (ie., "If you roll a 19 and hit, you score a critical hit"). It's stating directly, explicitly, and unambiguously that they "score a critical hit."

It's fair if you want to change this with a house rule, if that's what you mean. But I can't emphasize enough that the rules as written don't leave any room for interpretation.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

As far as I'm concerned the game is about fun, and its no fun to crit and be told you missed.

Right, but PCs aren't the only ones who can have class levels, and it's even less fun when you can only be hit on a 20 and the enemy manages to score a critical hit on a 19. Of course, it's also no fun to suffer a critical hit on a 20, when a 20 shouldn't even hit you anyway, if it wasn't for that stupid mercy rule.

My house rule is that a hit can only be a critical hit if it's a 20 (or whatever, based on other features), and if that would normally hit by at least a margin of 4. If you need a 19 or 20 to hit, then you can't score a critical hit against that target. If you can only be hit on a 20, then you don't suffer a critical hit from 100% of successful hits.

 

[Andor]

You know, I was reading the Champions ability as being the same as the 3e Improved critical, but it's not.

In 3e Improved Critical doubled your threat range, which is the area in which you may score a critical, if you hit and then confirm.

In 5e there is no confirming. Furthermore the language of the Champions ability is that he scores a critical hit. Not that he deals critical damage if he hits.

I think the OP is right, it's pretty unambiguous. If you take off the prior edition glasses the champion hits and crits on a 19 and eventually an 18. Cool.

 

[keterys]

Prior editions or not, it doesn't seem clear what happens when you "score a critical hit" that "misses" because you failed to get a high enough AC. That's the problem with the "automatic hit" being separate from the "critical" language.

_Personally_, I hope that bounded accuracy means that we never need to answer this question.

 

[Tormyr]

You know, I was reading the Champions ability as being the same as the 3e Improved critical, but it's not.

In 3e Improved Critical doubled your threat range, which is the area in which you may score a critical, if you hit and then confirm.

In 5e there is no confirming. Furthermore the language of the Champions ability is that he scores a critical hit. Not that he deals critical damage if he hits.

I think the OP is right, it's pretty unambiguous. If you take off the prior edition glasses the champion hits and crits on a 19 and eventually an 18. Cool.

Actually my thought was the opposite, that automatic and critical hits are separate things except for a 20, but that the wording if changed slightly would have made it obviously what you posted here. Additionally Mearls thought that all crits were auto hits. As a DM, I might weight this in the player's favor (yes for players, no for enemy NPCs).

 

[Tormyr]

Prior editions or not, it doesn't seem clear what happens when you "score a critical hit" that "misses" because you failed to get a high enough AC. That's the problem with the "automatic hit" being separate from the "critical" language.

_Personally_, I hope that bounded accuracy means that we never need to answer this question.

My thoughts exactly. Thanks for saying it more succinctly.