Dimension Door VS Schism

[delericho]

Dimension Door trumps Schism. (And Celerity for that matter.)

In both cases, these powers give you extra actions on your turn. Dimension Door ends your turn.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Dandu]

Celerity gives you an action on someone else's turn, but that's still trumped by Dimension Door.

 

[Drowbane]

Its cool, you guys are allowed to be wrong (joking, of course).

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=23396]Drowbane[/MENTION] "Autonomy" as defined by country or region, is the right or condition of self-government.
If a Schism were truly autonomous, you couldn't control it or do whatever you wanted with it - it would choose it's own actions and you'd have no ability to influence that.

Enjoy needing that extra power cast while it's thinking about squirrels.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Each of these powers provide text that trumps general rules.

Is the simple solution to allow the Schism Mind to act first doing whatever it was planning to do, than D Door as normal as the final action?

 

[Drowbane]

And we all know that special cases trump general rules.

[sblock]1. independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions: the autonomy of the individual.
2. the condition of being autonomous; self-government, or the right of self-government; independence: The rebels demanded autonomy from Spain.
3. a self-governing community.

Do I need to explain context as well?[/sblock]

 

[Sekhmet]

And we all know that special cases trump general rules.

[sblock]1. independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions: the autonomy of the individual.
2. the condition of being autonomous; self-government, or the right of self-government; independence: The rebels demanded autonomy from Spain.
3. a self-governing community.

Do I need to explain context as well?[/sblock]

Consider the following.
If there are two people inside of a tank, and the tank's treads and radar are blown out by an IED, do the people inside still get to use the tank?
Does the Schism use it's own PP?
Is the Schism it's own being, complete with it's own desires, will, and motives?
Can an enemy choose Schism for targeted spells?
Do you take additional damage from AoE/Spread/Line/etc spells due to your Schism?

If the answer to these questions are "no", then your interpretation of Schism is incorrect.


Also, when quoting a dictionary, please use a definitive source - the Oxford or Merriam Webster English dictionaries.
Autonomy requires freedom from external control or influence - Schism is directly under your complete control, which means it is not autonomous. If this were not the case, then Schism would be similar to a Rod of Wonder, to be used when you have no other option.

 

[Jimlock]

Is the simple solution to allow the Schism Mind to act first doing whatever it was planning to do, than D Door as normal as the final action?

Yes. This is entirely possible. By D-Dooring as your second standard action, you can fully profit from Schism.

If I recall correctly [MENTION=97602]Sekhmet[/MENTION] mentioned that earlier.

Each of these powers provide text that trumps general rules.

Well, if you consider the fact that Schism gives a second standard action as something that trumps general rules, then every power and spell trumps general rules one way or the other.

Feather Fall trumps general rules because otherwise you 'd free fall, Fly trumps general rules because otherwise you wouldn't be able to fly, Stoneskin trumps general rules because normally you 'd take full damage and so on and so on......

...D-Door lets you teleport while normally you can't AND does not allow you to take any actions you have left after you have used it, while normally you can...

I think that this "trumps-general-rules" hunt doesn't serve us much...

And we all know that special cases trump general rules.

1. independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions: the autonomy of the individual.
2. the condition of being autonomous; self-government, or the right of self-government; independence: The rebels demanded autonomy from Spain.
3. a self-governing community.

Do I need to explain context as well?

What you need to explain is why you think D-Door leaves one's mind nonfunctional??? Cause that would be the only way out of the dead end you've created yourself.

I've asked you twice, but you decided to roll your reflex save... both times

If you cannot prove that D-Door leaves one's mind non-functional... bogged... or whatever have you..... you have no case.

And you have no case because D-Door ONLY mentions that you cannot take actions. Moreover I provided you with three examples that prove how well the mind works after D-Door.

Perhaps I'm starting to get repetitive, but I believe that you fail to see the importance of your unsupported assumptions.

IF D-Door mentioned somehow that you lose actions because your MIND fails to follow through, then you could argue that Schism's second brain could do the job.

Unfortunately for your argument, D-Door simply mentions you lose actions without explaining why. And since we have proven that the mind works just fine, we could, if we wanted to, start looking elsewhere for an explanation.

The way I see it, could be anything from a nonsensical space-time "lag" due to the teleportation's distorting effect (whatever...) or simply a rule with no explanations whatsoever, only present to bog down an otherwise very powerful spell.

No matter how autonomous Schism's second mind is, (And we have provided you with well supported arguments that it is not as autonomous as you picture it), it is not the solution to the problem of being unable to take actions.

 

[Azoriel]

Schism works if your allies can act if they travel with you through a D-Door, "its" standard is still viable ("your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body").

Your assumption here is incorrect - the text of dimension door does not state that you cannot act after casting Dimension Door, but rather that you can't act after using Dimension Door. Therefore, anyone who uses Dimension Door (i.e. has teleported as a result of the spell's casting) is unable to act for the remainder of the round.

As to Celerity, or any other Swift / Immediate action, D-Door does not and can not account for those types of new rules. There for its up to DM interpretation based on all the factors, not just the spell that predates the other components.

Your assumption here is also incorrect - there have been numerous errata to PHB spells since the advent of the Swift / Immediate action (see any version of Polymorph). Even while newer versions of dimension door have been written since (such as Psionic Dimension Door from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Greater Dimension Door from the Spell Compendium), neither bother to make any allowances for Celerity or other such effects - clearly indicating that these are not exceptions to one's inability to act after using Dimension Door. (Even before Celerity and Swift actions, there were still free actions and quickened spells - which Dimension Door also makes no allowances for.)

How your group plays dimension door may very well diverge from how this spell is intended to work - but that does not change the fact that your reading of the spell (whether shared by your entire group or not) is incorrect.