Diplomacy: A game-wrecker?

[coyote6]

Nah, just roll a diplomacy check

Make sure to let them know you rolled decently, so your total is 35, which means they have to be Friendly (if they started out as Unfriendly or Hostile -- and if they did, why were they in your game anyways?) or Helpful.

 

[Matthias]

I'm running a campaign right now in which I have just recently designed a city that the characters are using as a base of operations. I've thoroughly developed the city, coming up with almost a hundred interactive NPC's as well as businesses, inns, guilds, and a full-on government. This was in the hope that the players would interact with the city and be drawn into it. However, they have, unfortunately, been conditioned to disregard things like that and move toward the "technical side" of interaction.

The largest problem I've found is with the diplomacy skill. I introduce them to an NPC, whether important or not, and the first words out of their mouths are "Diplomacy check to improve his/her mood." This is done for everything. Improving moods, bartering prices, gaining allies. The words are just "Diplomacy check."

And while I despise diplomacy the most, it isn't limited to that single skill. More and more, when they come back to town with loot, I hear the words "I buy a (insert magic item here)." No interaction. Nothing.

I feel like my effort is being wasted.

My big question is: does anyone know a way to get them away from this (particularly diplomacy) and condition them to actually role-play? To interact? I don't want to make it a requirement. I want it to be a choice on their part.

As in real life, not every NPC should respond the same way to whatever a PC thinks is "the diplomatic approach." As any girl who's ever tried to "pick up" a girl can tell you, trying to "sweet talk" or manipulate someone into doing what you want can backfire on you and backfire HARD.

I concur with other posters and challenge the players to briefly describe what tack they are trying to take with their Diplomacy check. If it's the kind of speech that will impress your NPC, you could grant a small circumstance bonus to their die roll. And conversely, if your imagined NPC would take offense to the PC's attempt (e.g., the PC might have broken a taboo or made a faux pas or simply rubbed the NPC the wrong way), then you could impose a circumstance penalty--perhaps severe enough that their base die roll will have to land on the high double digits just to keep from getting on the NPC's bad side!

 

[pawsplay]

As in real life, not every NPC should respond the same way to whatever a PC thinks is "the diplomatic approach." As any girl who's ever tried to "pick up" a girl can tell you, trying to "sweet talk" or manipulate someone into doing what you want can backfire on you and backfire HARD.

I concur with other posters and challenge the players to briefly describe what tack they are trying to take with their Diplomacy check. If it's the kind of speech that will impress your NPC, you could grant a small circumstance bonus to their die roll. And conversely, if your imagined NPC would take offense to the PC's attempt (e.g., the PC might have broken a taboo or made a faux pas or simply rubbed the NPC the wrong way), then you could impose a circumstance penalty--perhaps severe enough that their base die roll will have to land on the high double digits just to keep from getting on the NPC's bad side!

Plus, you have to establish the NPC's base attitude. Until the PCs make their own attitude clear, that's an unknown.

 

[Matthias]

The DM also has to gauge the player's motivations independent from what he claims his PC wants... sometimes what the player wants to roll is a Diplomacy check when it really should be a Bluff check. The player/PC wants to manipulate an NPC into lending him a hundred gold or a valuable weapon with the false promise that it'll be repaid/returned....that's not going to be Diplomacy, that's going to be Bluffing.

Looking at the Requests table under Diplomacy on page 94, you could house-rule varying levels of financial or personal sacrifice as equivalent to rendering aid.

Request ..... Dipl. DC Modifier ..... example
*Insignificant sacrifice ..... +0 ..... A penny from a middle-class merchant
*Minor sacrifice ..... +5 ..... A complimentary night's stay at the local inn
*Moderate sacrifice ..... +10 ..... A free Raise Dead performed by the shire's only temple
*Serious sacrifice ..... +15 or more..... Having a high-level wizard tag along with you pro bono, on a mission that will certainly put him in significant (for him) danger
*Critical sacrifice ..... +20 or more ..... The king entrusting you with the safety and virginity of his only daughter (without minders of any sort) -- or perhaps the security of a priceless historical relic or artifact -- for an entire week

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Me, I like going the opposite direction - rolling, then roleplaying to fit. There is nothing like the fun that you can have when your 18 intelligence, 18 charisma, 8 wisdom rogue gets a natural 1 on his diplomacy roll. (He ended up falling for a sob story, and paying out some fairly serious (low level) money, even though I got none of the information that I was looking for). Humor can be fun too.

The Auld Grump

 

[CardboardTube Knight]

Take off points for lack of RPing and also you could just tell them that a Diplomacy check takes 10 rounds to work and make them roll for each round. Bound to miss one.

 

[SPECTRE666]

Nah, just roll a diplomacy check

Ha!

 

[Grue]

Me, I like going the opposite direction - rolling, then roleplaying to fit. There is nothing like the fun that you can have when your 18 intelligence, 18 charisma, 8 wisdom rogue gets a natural 1 on his diplomacy roll. (He ended up falling for a sob story, and paying out some fairly serious (low level) money, even though I got none of the information that I was looking for). Humor can be fun too.

The Auld Grump

Well IIRC a nat 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure (like it is for saves and 'to hits'). Granted, that may still be a low final total but I'd figure in most circumstances the pc making the diplomacy roll has an reasonably good modifier (at least a +8 if the rogue above was first level and put 1 point into diplomacy for a final total of 9...on the left side of the curve but not catastrophically so), and it's very easy to pump that mod

 

[LostSoul]

Change the DCs to rely on what the characters actually say.

Something like this:

Initial Attitude	DC Modifier
Hostile			+20
Unfriendly		+10
Indifferent		-
Friendly		-5
Helpful			-20

PC				New Attitude (DC to achieve) 
Action...	Hostile	Unfriendly	Indifferent	Friendly	Helpful
Insults NPC	< 10	10		15		30		50
Irritates NPC	< 5	5		15		25		40
Interests NPC	< 1	1		5		15		30
Entertains NPC	< -5	-5		1		10		25 
Delights NPC	< -10	-10		1		10		20

In order to set the DC you need to know what the PC's action is. That means that your reply to "We use Diplomacy to improve his attitude" has to be "What do you say?" You can't set the DC without it.

(I'm sure someone could come up with a better list for "PC Action..." but you get the point.)

 

[gamerprinter]

I run a graphics shop (real life). When a drop dead gorgeous woman enters my shop, its like she rolled a diplomacy check, because I've gone from neutral to friendly (movement of two spaces). While that may be true, my prices for services are fixed (I've got a partner who doesn't care what a client looks like). So no matter what my reaction to the client's diplomacy check - my shop doesn't barter - the babe has to pay the same price that the hag does...

For some things diplomacy can affect positively or negatively in a situation, but not for every situation.

GP