Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[Whimsical]

By the way, I recommend that any DM who writes up rulers such as kings should give them several levels of Aristocrat so that they can have their own Diplomacy/Sense Motive skills. If anything to defend against those advisors and viziers. Or write up a Noble or Ruler prestige class for them to take which grants them class abilities to neutralize or minimize ridiculous diplomacy/bluff/intimidate effects.

 

[Storyteller01]

Aid another is one of the phew places where dnd doesn't put some kind of diminishing return on the bonus.

I thought it was limited to how many folks are effectively helping you. While one hundred screaming people is an impressive imagine, you can't listen to each one individually (at leatst not with out pull the delayed roll mentioned earilier. FILABUSTER!).

 

[Mistwell]

Except that two things are true about high diplomacy that aren't really true about any other thing in the game I can think of.

#1 It can overcome challenges
#2 There is no strong effort to prevent min-maxing of the ability

Plenty of things for #1 (attack and damage bonuses, spell and spell saves), but have a lot of effort put into preventing people from concentrating solely on that and getting it much higher than it should be (it can still be done, but not easily). And there are some things that aren't limited very much, but then don't benefit the character overly even with really high levels (many high skills - tumble, hide, etc). Diplomacy does both. You can get it really high AND having it really high makes a big difference.

You call devoting virtually every aspect of your character to ONE skill "easy"?!? Gimme a break. It's HARD to focus everything on Diplomacy. It's much harder to do it than focusing everything on a high attack bonus or high spell DCs. It's even harder when you come up against a pit trap that doesn't care if you have a silver tongue, or an ooze that doesn't hear you speak, or a new follower convinced by your diplomacy to help who find himself in trouble that you need to bail him out of, or a water-based location that prevents speech, or even the simple SILENCE spell that cannot be avoided merely by taking a feat (like magic using characters could do).

It's silly to sit here and pretend that a high diplomacy score is so unbalanced that you need to create all new rules to even allow it in your game. It's just diplomacy man, not a Harm spell! The real solution is to challenge your players in a way that includes their desire for that type of game.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The real solution is to challenge your players in a way that includes their desire for that type of game.

I think that bears repeating. Give them what they want, some social intrigue. Nobody (well not many) makes a diplomacy character because they want to fight things. I'm not saying its a good idea to build a campaign around it, but you might want to instead of start worrying about ways to stop them from influencing others, determine what neat and interesting things will happen when they do influence others. It doesn't mean the adventure is over if it is a part of the adventure!

 

[kanithardm]

The lesson? Maximum of one person can aid another in a Diplomacy attempt, unless using the delay skill check option, in which case each day an additional supporter can be added to the cause. However, the people you are negotiating with may opt to hasten the decision, screwing your plan for a really high diplomacy modifier. Alternately they may opt to unnecessarily delay your plan. And voila! Bureaucracy.

Ihave a funny comment, but I have to follow the no politics rule.

 

[Nail]

Ihave a funny comment, but I have to follow the no politics rule.

I hadn't originally read his comment that way. I, too, will restrain myself.

 

[Abstraction]

After reading this entire thread, I couldn't help but think that everyone is way overthinking this one. Paladin has mega-Diplomacy. Group is captured, thrown in jail. Group starts making escape plans. Paladin calls over one of the guards and tell DM "I Diplomacize him!"

DM: Okay, like what are you saying?
Pal: Well, I tell him about the injustice. That if he doesn't help us get out, terribly evil things are going to happen.
DM: (Guard voice) I don't know. They did bring you in for breaking into the mayor's place and you all seem very dangerous. On the other hand, you're right about the weird things happening.
Pal: Listen, pal, we don't want to cause you any harm. But if we don't get out of here –
Wizard: and get our stuff back!
Pal: Right, get out of here and get our stuff back, then you and everyone in the town is doomed to die!
DM: Okay, make your diplomacy roll.
Pal: With modifiers, 40!
DM turns to wizard player: Your name is Brok. You've been working as a guard at the local jail for almost a year now. You are handfasted to young seamstress who is impressed by your good job. Your fiance had an ill mother that she was caring for, but the unspeakable demons killed her and nearly got your fiance, too! All you want is to get married, maintain a respectable job, and save a little money to pay off the debts on the family farm. A lot of weird things have been happening in town, and now the constables have brought in some odd looking guys that were caught causing a ruckus at the mayor's house. After talking with the blonde warrior guy, you get the feeling that they're probably pretty good people. You want to help them, but of course you have to think about your job and upcoming marriage. What do you do?

There we go. Helpful guard, but not too helpful. No DM fiat needed either way. Of course, you have to make it clear to the other players that poor roleplaying of the guard/king/wizard means that you as DM will handle it next time, and the person will be very risk-adverse.

Added benefit: involves the rest of the group more with the Diplomacizing.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's a really good idea, Abstraction. I like it!

 

[Arkhandus]

Something to keep in mind too, is that not everyone is helpful in the same way, or friendly in the same way. A self-absorbed or prideful person is limited in how much they're willing to help people, because some things would be beneath them, or impugn their dignity or family honor or something, or might get them dirty (and what creampuff noble wants to get their hands dirty for a bunch of strangers, no matter how charming and needy they seem? They ain't his/her king, after all.). A decent fellow is going to be more helpful, an Evil or self-absorbed or busy person less so.

One-Eyed Jack may help ya for a hefty sum of gold and the assurance that he won't have to get past any lawmen, but Patrick the saintly old geezer might help ya out for free just because you seem like such upstanding people. Not that Patrick the farmer's likely to be much help compared to One-Eyed Jack the professional thug and sneak.

Just consider that helpful doesn't mean free, or beyond the scope fo the NPC's personality or means; Bob the Hobo isn't going to give you that shiny stone he found last week unless you wring it from his cold, dead hands after a long and difficult chase throught he streets and sewers he could run through perfectly even if he were blindfolded. Hobo Bob doesn't give a rat's behind that the shiny stone is the Sacred Gem of Saint So-and-so that has the power to destroy the world if it were corrupted by someone evil getting their hands on it. Hobo Bob will keep that shiny stone until he can sell it for gads of cash so he never has to eat garbage again. Hobo Bob may be just cowardly enough to hand over the gem if you put a sword to his throat and look like the sort of no-mercy bad-arses who would actually slit his throat for disobeying, but that's about the only way you'd get him to turn over a something valuable he found.

Even helpful people are likely to want money or favors for their help, most of the time (if some cool, charismatic guy walked up to you out of the blue and asked you to help him against a Russian Mafia boss, do you honestly think you'd help him without some severe hesitation and qualms about "what if they find out I helped this guy, and come to get me?" How do you know the guy will succeed and avoid getting you in trouble with them, and how do you know he isn't really just looking for fools who would rat out his Mafia, or looking for the Mafia so he can sell them some new guns and drugs to make life for folks on the street even worse? Now if you were in D&D and asked to help against the evil overlord, or the thieves' guild......). Someone who's friendly or helpful is not going to treat you like a second brother, and they might even be a generally nasty fellow, so they might just be willing to help you because they expect a hefty payday out of you.

 

[Quickleaf]

I hadn't originally read his comment that way. I, too, will restrain myself.

You guys are killing me. What's so funny?

Abstraction, I love doing that with the players! I think with a gaming group evolves enough to handle that sort of off-the-cuff RPing of NPCs wouldn't have problems abusing the Diplomacy skill in the first place. I think the real question is how to make a rule (for those of us who care about rules ) for Diplomacy that clarifies to what extent NPCs will go out of their way when they are made "Helpful."
Cheers!