Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[IcyCool]

Now that I have a player with a disgustingly high Diplomacy skill (+30's), I have discovered just how unuseable the Diplomacy skill is. He can turn every, single, indifferent or better NPC into Helpful.

Every one. Without a chance for failure.

I know that Diplomacy is not mind control. But my question is, just how far will a friendly or helpful NPC go? Will the helpful street waif give the character the only piece of bread she's been able to scrounge up all week? Will the helpful king allow the character the use of his armies? Will the helpful Wizard let the character borrow a powerful magical item for a year?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I've started to run into this problem as well and I now require that the player tell me, in abstract terms at the very least, how it is they're going about using the skill. They don't need to tell me the details of it, but they do need to tell me what "angle" they're going to play up and I might give them some hints if they're way off base. That requires them to bring campaign events into the equation. But I don't just let a die roll determine everything.

For example, trying to convince a bunch of barbarians to invest in the stock market is going to require a darn good RP explanation (maybe there's a new fur company on the market?).

The other thing to remember is that it just makes the NPCs helpful/friendly. They don't necessarily have to take the course of action presented to them; they could come up with an alternative that is equally attractive (at least to them), even if it's not exactly what the PC wanted.

 

[hazmat]

Don't forget about circumstance bonuses or penalties.

The SRD says that a Helpful attitudes means that the NPC "will take risks to help you."
Possible actions being Protect, back up, heal, aid.

It does not say that the NPC becomes stupid and our thrall.

If I were the DM:

The stree waif would probably decline and you'd have a penalty whenever you interacted with her.

So the King might offer the uses of his armies to aid you in your quest if it was for the good of the kingdom. Or He might offer you one of his units. Or he might take offense at such a suggestion and you'd get a penalty when you interacted with him. Depends on the NPCs character.

The Wizard probably wouldn't let you borrow the magic item unless there was some history between you or it fit into the plot.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Have you tried the variant Diplomacy rules from GITP?

http://www.giantitp.com

Under Function ...

 

[Cheiromancer]

Don't forget to apply the -10 penalty if the diplomacy is rushed. This prevents it from being an automatic conflict avoider.

Let the diplomacy using character have his fun when not much is at stake. But as for borrowing armies? That's a problem.

The easiest fix is to have some "behind the scenes" NPCs with their own ungodly high Diplomacy modifiers. Maybe the King is one; but more likely it is his grand high chamberlain. If the character tries to persuade the King to do something the Chamberlain has told him not to do, make opposed diplomacy checks. If the character encounters the chamberlain directly, the same thing goes; someone skilled in diplomacy will also be skilled in resisting its use, so opposed diplomacy checks would be in order.

If the character is really obnoxious, the chamberlain will have to send deaf assassins to deal with him.

 

[Whimsical]

I don't know if you know this, but NPCs can use their Diplomacy skills defensively. If the player's roll doesn't beat the NPC's roll, then it fails.

Just remember that there's a lot that you would do for a good friend, but there's a lot that you wouldn't do either.

Will the helpful street waif give the character the only piece of bread she's been able to scrounge up all week?
The waif may give her bread...but the request probably made her Hostile so the Diplomacy check has to beat that. If it does, the PC gets the bread.

Will the helpful king allow the character the use of his armies?
The king may really like the PC, but he is responsible for the defense of his realm and the welfare of the army. The king would probably offer an alternative solution to the PC's request that minimizes the use and risk of the kingdom's resources. But if he can't think of anything, then he may. After all, the PC presented a very compelling case why this needs to be done.

Will the helpful Wizard let the character borrow a powerful magical item for a year?
If you really like someone, you care about their welfare and wish for them to succeed. If the wizard determines that the magic item could help the PC survive and be successful in his enterprises, and the wizard doesn't have a greater need for the magic item, then he may. Although he may also offer an alternative solution that works best for the wizard and the PC.

Just consider that you probably have never encounted anyone in your entire life with a +20 diplomacy, much less a +30. If someone with a +30 diplomacy is speaking to you, it would be like meeting the first person in your life that truly understood you on a spiritual level. It would make you feel that the most powerful relationships you have had in your life have been shallow mockeries compared to how this person sees you. it would be like looking into the face of God and seeing Him smiling back and saying, "You are my most wondrous creation." Well, maybe that's +50.

 

[diaglo]

getting someone friendly thru diplomacy still doesn't change the fact you have to use other skills.

most notably bluff if you try and lie to your new found friend.

the king may lend the aid of his army to the PCs. that doesn't mean he won't charge for it. possibly to hire replacements. or pay the wages of the army. or whatever he felt was reasonable.

the waif won't give up all her food. she might share. she might lead the party to places they can get more. she might do alot of things. she isn't going to commit suicide nor even starve herself.

 

[Tonguez]

Friendly doesn't mean stupid and can lead to RP moments

1. the waif now thinks of you as a father-figure/big brother. He wants to stay with you and learn to be a famous adventurer too. In fact he has stowed away in your luggage and now that you are deep within the caverns of Doom - um - you also have an 8 yr old to look after!!!!

2. The King offers you a commission and the use of a squad of elite troopers from his army - provided you use it to go off and seal the Hell Gate (you'll need the army to battle the 10000 demons which have already poured through!). Problem is the Squad captain is a spy working for the enemy (afterall you didn't 'diplomacy' him did you...)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Now that I have a player with a disgustingly high Diplomacy skill (+30's), I have discovered just how unuseable the Diplomacy skill is. He can turn every, single, indifferent or better NPC into Helpful.

Every one. Without a chance for failure.

I know that Diplomacy is not mind control. But my question is, just how far will a friendly or helpful NPC go? Will the helpful street waif give the character the only piece of bread she's been able to scrounge up all week? Will the helpful king allow the character the use of his armies? Will the helpful Wizard let the character borrow a powerful magical item for a year?

It´s a good question, but there can only be guidelines:
They won´t certainly not do more than would any of the party members, since they are usually the closest allies and friends to the character.
Maybe borrowing a powerful magical item is okay - if the party member doesn´t need it, or if he gets a good replacement for it, and if he´s sure it won´t do better in his own hands.
Giving a way an item that is extremely important for the character, and he took lenghts to acquire (waif/bread scenario) - not likely, though sharing or a useful advice might be in place...

 

[kanithardm]

Have you tried the variant Diplomacy rules from GITP?

http://www.giantitp.com

Under Function ...

I like these rules a lot.