Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[Roxlimn]

I'd have to stringently disagree. "Helpful" does not mean "slave," and there are many, many flavors of "will take risks to save you."

A King, for example, who believes that your quest is ultimately doomed to failure may very well have you disarmed and confined to quarters until you "come to your senses." It would require a skill check of an entirely different difficulty level and/or nature to convince him of the validity of your cause. Befriending someone doesn't necessarily mean that you now agree on every little thing. After all, Magneto and Xavier were once the best of friends.

What about the waif? Well, it depends on the circumstances. Asking for her bread just because when you're obviously much better off than she is reflects an obvious and malign lack of concern for her well-being that can't possibly be masked by mere words some moments ago. You can probably fool her into giving it to you, but honestly request it when you're much better off? Such an attempt simply goes against everything Diplomacy stands for and I will most likely rule an automatic failure. It would like asking your friendly new acquaitance to jump off a cliff!

 

[IcyCool]

Good points, all. I agree that Diplomacy doesn't make the NPC stupid, but while I'm fine with "DM fiat", this particular player isn't. He likes to have consistent calls, and have them down before he tries anything. While I could just tell him to suck it up and move on, I do like to try to accomodate my players.

Patryn, I have looked at Rich's system, but it seems to breakdown just like the RAW with high Diplomacy. Maybe I didn't read it correctly. I'd check, but I can't look at Rich's site from this job. Could someone post a general overview?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn, I have looked at Rich's system, but it seems to breakdown just like the RAW with high Diplomacy. Maybe I didn't read it correctly. I'd check, but I can't look at Rich's site from this job. Could someone post a general overview?

Well, it can basically be summarised as this: "The current Diplomacy skill equates to 'making people like you.' The revised version equates to 'get someone to accept a deal you are offering.'"

Also, it's OGC, so ...

The Big Reveal:

Diplomacy (Cha)

Use this skill to ask the local baron for assistance, to convince a band of thugs not to attack you, or to talk your way into someplace you aren't supposed to be.

Check: You can propose a trade or agreement to another creature with your words; a Diplomacy check can then persuade them that accepting it is a good idea. Either side of the deal may involve physical goods, money, services, promises, or abstract concepts like "satisfaction." The DC for the Diplomacy check is based on three factors: who the target is, the relationship between the target and the character making the check, and the risk vs. reward factor of the deal proposed.

The Target: The base DC for any Diplomacy check is equal to the 15 + level of the highest-level character in the group that you are trying to influence + the Wisdom modifier of the character in the group with the highest Wisdom. High-level characters are more committed to their views and are less likely to be swayed; high Wisdom characters are more likely to perceive the speaker's real motives and aims. By applying the highest modifiers in any group, a powerful king (for example) might gain benefit from a very wise advisor who listens in court and counsels him accordingly. For this purpose, a number of characters is only a "group" if they are committed to all following the same course of action. Either one NPC is in charge, or they agree to act by consensus. If each member is going to make up their mind on their own, roll separate Diplomacy checks against each.

The Relationship: Whether they love, hate, or have never met each other, the relationship between two people always influences any request.

• -10 Intimate: Someone who with whom you have an implicit trust. Example: A lover or spouse.
• -7 Friend: Someone with whom you have a regularly positive personal relationship. Example: A long-time buddy or a sibling.
• -5 Ally: Someone on the same team, but with whom you have no personal relationship. Example: A cleric of the same religion or a knight serving the same king.
• -2 Acquaintance (Positive): Someone you have met several times with no particularly negative experiences. Example: The blacksmith that buys your looted equipment regularly.
• +0 Just Met: No relationship whatsoever. Example: A guard at a castle or a traveler on a road.
• +2 Acquaintance (Negative): Someone you have met several times with no particularly positive experiences. Example: A town guard that has arrested you for drunkenness once or twice.
• +5 Enemy: Someone on an opposed team, with whom you have no personal relationship. Example: A cleric of a philosophically-opposed religion or an orc bandit who is robbing you.
• +7 Personal Foe: Someone with whom you have a regularly antagonistic personal relationship. Example: An evil warlord whom you are attempting to thwart, or a bounty hunter who is tracking you down for your crimes.
• +10 Nemesis: Someone who has sworn to do you, personally, harm. Example: The brother of a man you murdered in cold blood.

Risk vs. Reward Judgement: The amount of personal benefit must always be weighed against the potential risks for any deal proposed. It is important to remember to consider this adjustment from the point of view of the NPC themselves and what they might value; while 10 gp might be chump change to an adventurer, it may represent several months' earnings for a poor farmer. Likewise, a heroic paladin is unlikely to be persuaded from his tenets for any amount of gold, though he might be convinced that a greater good is served by the proposed deal. When dealing with multiple people at once, always consider the benefits to the person who is in clear command, if any hierarchy exists within the group.

• -10 Fantastic: The reward for accepting the deal is very worthwhile, and the risk is either acceptable or extremely unlikely. The best-case scenario is a virtual guarantee. Example: An offer to pay a lot of gold for something of no value to the subject, such as information that is not a secret.
• -5 Favorable: The reward is good, and the risk is tolerable. If all goes according to plan, the deal will end up benefiting the subject. Example: A request to aid the party in battle against a weak goblin tribe in return for a cut of the money and first pick of the magic items.
• +0 Even: The reward and risk are more or less even, or the deal involves neither reward nor risk. Example: A request for directions to someplace that is not a secret.
• +5 Unfavorable: The reward is not enough compared to the risk involved; even if all goes according to plan, chances are it will end up badly for the subject. Example: A request to free a prisoner the subject is guarding (for which he or she will probably be fired) in return for a small amount of money.
• +10 Horrible: There is no conceivable way the proposed plan could end up with the subject ahead, or the worst-case scenario is guaranteed to occur. Example: A offer to trade a bit of dirty string for a castle.

Success or Failure: If the Diplomacy check beats the DC, the subject accepts the proposal, with no changes or with minor (mostly idiosyncratic) changes. If the check fails by 5 or less, the subject does not accept the deal but may, at the DM's option, present a counter-offer that would push the deal up one place on the risk-vs.-reward list. For example, a counter-offer might make an Even deal Favorable for the subject. The character who made the Diplomacy check can simply accept the counter-offer, if they choose; no further check will be required. If the check fails by 10 or more, the Diplomacy is over; the subject will entertain no further deals, and may become hostile or take other steps to end the conversation.

Action: Making a request or proposing a deal generally requires at least 1 full minute. In many situations, this time requirement may greatly increase.

Try Again: If you alter the parameters of the deal you are proposing, you may try to convince the subject that this new deal is even better than the last one. This is essentially how people haggle. As long as you never roll 10 or less than the DC on your Diplomacy check, you can continue to offer deals.

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy. No other skill provides a synergy bonus to Diplomacy.

Source: http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html

He even provides some good examples:

A 5th level party is trying to get into an extravagant ball being thrown by a local baron (who is secretly an evil cultist). The party bard, with a Diplomacy of +13, tries to talk his way in. Three guards at the door are only letting in those who are on The List. Their captain is a 5th level fighter, and they are accompanied by a 1st level aristocrat with a Wisdom of 13, giving a base DC of 21 (the remaining guards are lower level and have Wisdoms of 10, so they don't add to the DC.) The guards have never met the adventurers before, so the Relationship modifier is +0. The final DC, however, depends on how the bard chooses to try to talk their way past the guards:

• If the party approaches the guards and simply asks to be let in, they are offering a risk of "failing in your duty and probably getting fired or reprimanded" against a reward of "nothing". The guards might not get caught, but don't really get anything out of the deal either; it's an Unfavorable deal and gets a +5 increase to the DC, for a total of 26. The bard needs to roll a 13 or higher; not impossible, but risky.
• If the party slips a pouch with 20 platinum pieces into the hand of the guard captain first, though, the deal becomes more favorable. Since even split four ways, the platinum is a decent amount of money compared to how much they get paid. Sure, they might get fired, but the platinum could keep them well-fed until they found another job anyway. The deal is now Favorable, and gets a -5 decrease to the DC, for a total of 16. The bard needs to roll a 3 or better-pretty easy.
• If the party dresses up as aristocrats and successfully Bluffs the guards into believing they are nobles, the deal alters as well. The guard may get fired for letting in someone who is not on The List, but then, this noble before him may get him fired for keeping them out of the season's social event. Either way, the guard might lose his job, so the deal is Even, and the DC stays at 21. Our bard needs to now roll an 8 or better to succeed.
• If, unbeknownst to the bard, the guard captain is fully aware of the evil baron's cult activities, things change again. First, the baron may have threatened the captain with a painful death if he fails his duty; thus, whatever method the bard uses to approach the guard will be one step less favorable, since the worst-case scenario is a brutal death rather than just job termination. The risk is much higher than the captain lets on, so if they offer him nothing in return the deal is Horrible for him, increasing the DC by +10 for a total of 31; the bard needs to roll an 18 or better-very unlikely. Further, if the captain is in on the baron's evil dealings and recognizes the adventurers as agents of Good, he might be considered an Enemy and qualify for an additional +5 increase to the DC based on relationship, for a total of 36! This is a recipe for disaster if the bard attempts it, but he doesn't know that.
• But then again, if they discover that guard is Lawful Good, the bard can suggest that they are there to take expose the baron's dirty deeds. The bard is still offering no money, but now the "payment" is the action the adventurers will take that supports and exemplifies the guard's alignment. The deal is Favorable for him once again, since even if he is fired, he will have the satisfaction of knowing he helped thwart an evil plan. If the bard also slips the captain 20 platinum, it might push the deal up to Fantastic, for a grand total DC of 11. The bard then needs a -2: he will automatically succeed, though of course he doesn't know that either.
• Finally, let's say the bard offers a bribe, but it is only 50 gold pieces. That's not enough to split 4 ways and live off if they get fired, but it is decent-an Even deal, DC 21, and the bard needs an 8 on the die. But whoops! He rolls a 5! That's within 5 of the DC, though, so the captain looks at the gold and replies that this is only enough for one of them, and that he needs another 50 gp for his three friends. He's giving the bard the parameters of what would make the deal Favorable to him-200 gp, as in the first example. The bard can either pony up the extra 150 and end the conversation now, or he can try a completely different tack and roll again.

 

[IcyCool]

Well, it can basically be summarised as this: "The current Diplomacy skill equates to 'making people like you.' The revised version equates to 'get someone to accept a deal you are offering.'"

That's a great system, but the DC isn't hard enough. As it currently stands, the character in question could, with this system, convince a king (15th level) (+4 Wis modifier) that he has just met (+0) to trade his castle for a piece of string (+10 DC), with roughly a 50% chance of success.

At 8th level.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's a great system, but the DC isn't hard enough. As it currently stands, the character in question could, with this system, convince a king (15th level) (+4 Wis modifier) that he has just met (+0) to trade his castle for a piece of string (+10 DC), with roughly a 50% chance of success.

At 8th level.

DC = 15 + 15 + 4 + 0 + 10 = 44

Also, 18 Wisdom is the wisest counselor the king has?

So how'd he get +34 on Diplomacy by 8th-level? Remember that the variant rule removes nearly all of the synergy bonuses.

That's +23 to the roll he needs to come up with (assuming he's maxxed out his ranks in the score).

 

[Mogney]

Here is my house rule for Diplomacy.

Conversation is more than just a die roll.

Diplomacy:
Diplomacy boils down to negotiation. In any situation where you want to make a diplomacy roll you are attempting to convince somebody to do something he or she wouldn’t ordinarily do. As written in the PHB diplomacy can essentially replace a role-played conversation with a die roll. Here is a system that still focuses on role-playing the conversation without making the Diplomacy skill a waste of ranks.
Diplomacy is always rolled as an opposed check except for the one exception noted below. A team of negotiators can work together, meaning to help someone you must make a DC 10 Diplomacy check and if you succeed you add +2 to anothers Diplomacy check, in order to do this though the helping player MUST participate in the role-played conversation.
A negotiator must often work very hard in order to gain an advantage over his opponent. Therefore, if you are merely watching a negotiation you can still make an opposed Diplomacy check, albeit at a -15 penalty.
You may only initiate one opposed check per conversation, but you can help any number of other negotiators, this is where it pays to have multiple negotiators on your side.
Should you lose or tie the opposed check, you will learn nothing of note and the role-play continues on as normal.
Should you lose the opposed check by more than 10, then the DM may assess a handicap, perhaps further entrenching your opponents position, or raising the price (what you will have to give up) to get what you want.
Should you win by 5 or less, the DM will give you a hint as to his general attitude. E.g. “Throg finds you to be an annoyance and wishes you would go away.”
Should you win by 6-10 the DM will give you a hint as to what his general position is. E.g. “Throg will not allow you to pass because his employer would have his head.”
Should you win by 11-20 the DM will give you a great hint. E.g. “In order to get Throg to let you pass you will have to offer him a bribe that is enough for him to quit his job and leave, or you can offer him a lesser bribe but you would have to convince him that he will not be blamed for your getting by.”
Should you win by more than 20, you will get periodic great hints from the DM throughout the conversation.

Bluff vs Sense Motive in a conversation.
This is unchanged from the PHB except to note that a successful bluff cannot be undone with a diplomacy roll. If you believed the lie then, you still believe it when getting information from an opposed Diplomacy check.

 

[Coredump]

Good points, all. I agree that Diplomacy doesn't make the NPC stupid, but while I'm fine with "DM fiat", this particular player isn't. He likes to have consistent calls, and have them down before he tries anything.

I think this goes against what Diplomacy is, and what role playing game are all about. Maybe he should try blackjack instead.


I don't care *how* good a roll someone gets. I am *not* selling them my house for $50. I may even feel really really bad that I can't help him out by selling him my house, but I'm still not going to do it.

And remember, the time it takes *starts* at one minute. But "this time requirement may greatly increase". It may takes weeks to convince the King to send hit troops, *if* he will anyway.

So one way around this. Give steep modifiers based on time, but don't tell the player (since the character would never know)

So to talk the waif out of the bread may take a base of 10 minutes of a 'pitch', and a DC of 35 for the closing sale. So if he spends 10 minutes, or more, trying, then needs to roll a 35. But if he only spends one round trying, then it may be a DC of 55.

The King you decide starts off with a base of one month, and a DC of 30. If he only spends two weeks, he would need a DC of 45. If only three days, a DC of 75.

If you spend TOO long 'softening' them up, it gets annoying, and may also raise the DC.
So if you spend 2 months talking with the king before the final 'sales pitch', then it is a DC 40.

And, of course, if the first 'final sales pitch' fails, the second one is also at a penalty.



Remember, diplomacy only changes their 'attitude', it doesn't guarantee they will do what you want.

 

[apesamongus]

Now that I have a player with a disgustingly high Diplomacy skill (+30's), I have discovered just how unuseable the Diplomacy skill is. He can turn every, single, indifferent or better NPC into Helpful.

Every one. Without a chance for failure.

I know that Diplomacy is not mind control. But my question is, just how far will a friendly or helpful NPC go? Will the helpful street waif give the character the only piece of bread she's been able to scrounge up all week? Will the helpful king allow the character the use of his armies? Will the helpful Wizard let the character borrow a powerful magical item for a year?

That would depend on the personalities of those characters. A extremely generous street waif might. And it depends on the situation at hand and how the situation affects the NPC. A "helpful" prison guard might do nothing more than slip you a cup of water and a bit of leather to bite on as you're tortured.

 

[Goolpsy]

yes, your example came up last i play'd... the characters were breaking free from prison (without weapons) and the guard threatned them... (Of course guards can easily kill prisoners that are trying to escape) Anyway, the paladin made anice Diplomacy check, and made the guard friendly. He then insisted on making the guard help them out of prison, though the DM ruled, that the nice and friendly guard would be nice and friendly enought to give them a chance to get back into the cell, without notifying anyone or killing them.

 

[IcyCool]

DC = 15 + 15 + 4 + 0 + 10 = 44

Also, 18 Wisdom is the wisest counselor the king has?

So how'd he get +34 on Diplomacy by 8th-level? Remember that the variant rule removes nearly all of the synergy bonuses.

That's +23 to the roll he needs to come up with (assuming he's maxxed out his ranks in the score).

As to the wisdom for the king's counselor, do you like having every high-ranking individual in your world high level? Or with an almost inhuman wisdom score? 18 wisdom is tremendously high for a human. I suppose if I started with that and had a 16th level counselor with Wisdom 22 for every ruling body, they might stand a chance until skippy the wonder paladin gets to within 6 levels of them.

Maybe if I allow the option for a diplomacy check or ranks in diplomacy to count towards the DC instead of levels/HD? Hmmm....

As to the Aasimar Paladin's Diplomacy skill:
11 ranks +7 Cha +3 Circlet +6 synergy +2 feat +2 feat +3 (Legendary Leader)

It's not as bad as it could be (Skill Focus), but it's pretty hefty.

I must be going blind, I completely didn't see the synergy removal. That would make his total 11 + 7 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 30, which would mean he'd make it on a 14 or higher.

That is beside the point however, because barring mind-control magic or a sudden aneurism on the part of the king, there is no way he'd ever trade his castle for a piece of string.

I just need to decide that some things are impossible, and go from there.