Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[Pielorinho]

11 ranks +7 Cha +3 Circlet +6 synergy +2 feat +2 feat.

+7 Cha at eighth level? That's a 24 charisma; assuming he started with 18, has a +4 item, and put both his points into Cha, that's plausible.

What's this +3 circlet? Without it, on a natural 20 he'd make the roll, but only then.

That is beside the point however, because barring mind-control magic or a sudden aneurism on the part of the king, there is no way he'd ever trade his castle for a piece of string.

I just need to decide that some things are impossible, and go from there.

Very wise. I'd also be sure that any king had an advisor with a very high wisdom (including a powerful wisdom-enhancing item), and that a horrible offer made to someone very powerful could prove lethal. Imagine what would've happened if a stranger had approached King Henry VIII and, with silken words, tried to bamboozle him out of his castle.

Daniel

 

[IcyCool]

+7 Cha at eighth level? That's a 24 charisma; assuming he started with 18, has a +4 item, and put both his points into Cha, that's plausible.

Aasimar Paladin, both stat bumps into Charisma, Cloak of Charisma.

What's this +3 circlet? Without it, on a natural 20 he'd make the roll, but only then.

Circlet of Persuasion.

 

[Pielorinho]

Paladin--ding! He needs to consider very carefully whether any particular use of diplomacy is honorable. Persuading anyone to accept a deal that is, from their end, horrible may well be a dishonorable act. Paladins are not used car salesmen.

I completely forgot about the circlet of persuasion.
Daniel

 

[Mallus]

I agree that Diplomacy doesn't make the NPC stupid, but while I'm fine with "DM fiat", this particular player isn't.

I have some advice: tell that particular player play something other than RPG's. How about a nice game of chess...DM fiat is unavoidable, unless you play a game without one.

And 'helpful' doesn't mean the NPC does whatever the PC tells him to. A 'helpful' NPC mother isn't likely to kill her newborn infant because of a high Diplomacy roll... and a king isn't likely to abandon his duty to his kingdom... Why do some players insist on checking their common sense at the door when it comes to these (new-ish) social skill mechanics?

 

[IcyCool]

Paladins are not used car salesmen.

Heh. I'm going to write this one down.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

As to the wisdom for the king's counselor, do you like having every high-ranking individual in your world high level?

No, but you're the one positing a 15th-level king. I'd imagine he's got a friend, at least, that's similar in level.

Or with an almost inhuman wisdom score? 18 wisdom is tremendously high for a human.

So, you have a problem with a 15th-level King's wisest councilor having more than an 18 Wisdom score, but ...

As to the Aasimar Paladin's Diplomacy skill:
11 ranks +7 Cha +3 Circlet +6 synergy +2 feat +2 feat +3 (Legendary Leader)

Your 8th-level Aasimar Paladin's got a +7 Charisma bonus? That's a 24 Charisma score at 8th-level.

I'd imagine that *someone* in the king's court would pick up a Periapt of Wisdom, at least, by 15th-level.

Your synergy bonus goes down to +2, by the way, under the new rules - as I mentioned above. I assume the +3 circlet is the Circlet of Persuasion? Note that this provides a Competence bonus - you may have some stacking issues going on.

+2 Feat, +2 Feat, +3 Legendary Leader? You'll need to provide some more information on this.

 

[Nail]

As to the wisdom for the king's counselor, do you like having every high-ranking individual in your world high level? Or with an almost inhuman wisdom score? 18 wisdom is tremendously high for a human.

But this is D&D, not the real world. And 18 in a person's primary ability score is only (barely!) decent - not "inhuman".

Yes, I expect practically all powerful leaders to be high level, and have access to very high Wisdom counselors. Otherwise...well, those are the worlds Demons have taken over......

 

[IcyCool]

No, but you're the one positing a 15th-level king. I'd imagine he's got a friend, at least, that's similar in level.

The 15th level thing was a random level that I picked out of thin air. If it is your contention that the King will have at least one high level NPC hanging out with him, then I won't argue. We'll go off of that assumption.

So, you have a problem with a 15th-level King's wisest councilor having more than an 18 Wisdom score, but ...

Actually, I don't like having to make my important NPC's super high level. I also don't have a problem with the counselor having a high Wisdom score. I just don't like being required to do it.

Your 8th-level Aasimar Paladin's got a +7 Charisma bonus? That's a 24 Charisma score at 8th-level.

Yep. Believe me, I know. He started with a 16 base, +2 for Aasimar, +2 level bumps +4 cloak of charisma.

I'd imagine that *someone* in the king's court would pick up a Periapt of Wisdom, at least, by 15th-level.

Sure, if he's a 15th level NPC and advisor to the king, he's probably got a +4 or +6 item. So that does what to the DC, bump it by 3?

Your synergy bonus goes down to +2, by the way, under the new rules - as I mentioned above. I assume the +3 circlet is the Circlet of Persuasion? Note that this provides a Competence bonus - you may have some stacking issues going on.

Right, so as I listed before he has 11 ranks + 7 Cha + 3 Circlet of Persuasion + 2 Synergy + 2 from Nymph's Kiss + 2 from (I don't have the sheet here, negotiator maybe?) + 3 from Legendary Leader (This is a PrC from Heroes of Battle that lets you add your levels in it to your Diplomacy checks, among other things)

+2 Feat, +2 Feat, +3 Legendary Leader? You'll need to provide some more information on this.

Is the above enough? I can't really provide more until I look at the sheet.

 

[Crothian]

It looks like the player min maxed Diplomancy, min maxing is always going to cause problems.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The 15th level thing was a random level that I picked out of thin air. If it is your contention that the King will have at least one high level NPC hanging out with him, then I won't argue. We'll go off of that assumption.

Actually, I don't like having to make my important NPC's super high level. I also don't have a problem with the counselor having a high Wisdom score. I just don't like being required to do it.

Sounds good. It's not even required that the NPC be high-level. The point is that the variant Diplomacy rules set the DC based on the highest level on the "opposing team" and the highest Wisdom on the "opposing team."

Given the resources of a kingdom, and the presence on the "Privy Counsel" (for lack of a better term) of local clerics, I think an 18 Wisdom for the best advisor the King has is a low-ball estimate. Perhaps my spacing made the point easy to miss, but I think 18 is particularly low-ball for such a person given the fact that a much lower-level PC has easily surpassed it in half the time.

Yep. Believe me, I know. He started with a 16 base, +2 for Aasimar, +2 level bumps +4 cloak of charisma.

In other words, a character who has focused extensively on making himself persuasive.

Sure, if he's a 15th level NPC and advisor to the king, he's probably got a +4 or +6 item. So that does what to the DC, bump it by 3?

Yep; well, +3 above what it would have been before.

Right, so as I listed before he has 11 ranks + 7 Cha + 3 Circlet of Persuasion + 2 Synergy + 2 from Nymph's Kiss + 2 from (I don't have the sheet here, negotiator maybe?) + 3 from Legendary Leader (This is a PrC from Heroes of Battle that lets you add your levels in it to your Diplomacy checks, among other things)

No comments on HoB - I haven't read it at all.

Isn't Nymph's Kiss an Exalted feat?

In any event, what we are looking at here is a character who has dedicated a huge amount of some very limited resources to being extremely good at convincing people to do what he wants.

Think about it - Paladins get 2 skill points per level. He's spent 1 of them on Diplomacy. He's spent the other on Bluff (cross-class, so he didn't get a synergy bonus until 7th-level). He's taken a feat, of which he gets 7, total, to be better at Diplomacy. He's made himself Exalted and spent *another* feat so that, again, he can get better at Diplomacy.

He is a Diplomacy-focused character. But he's an Exalted Diplomacy-focused character, and a Paladin to boot.

At this point, I'd let him have his fun.

Is the above enough? I can't really provide more until I look at the sheet.

S'good.