Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[Rystil Arden]

....uh-oh. XPH trouble....how.....err, unusual.

Meh, its not any of the psionic powers (After all, Attraction gives a Will Save, so it isn't fair to include). Just the Psicrystal. Allow a +3 Diplomacy familiar and you can do exactly the same thing without using the XPH.

 

[billd91]

You might even want to point out to this player that the PHB says, under the Try Again heading:

"Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good." (emphasis mine)

In other words, there may be a limit to the level of success you can achieve. That helpful waif might show you where she got her bread rather than give you her own. That jailer might only be willing to stick his neck out far enough to get you preferential treatment and not into his own noose. He might even be willing to help you thwart the hangman by smuggling in some poison for you to drink first!
And these results will not be consistent from NPC to NPC because each of these NPCs is different. DM fiat is the norm when dealing with individual NPCs. The important thing is for the DM to realistically and honestly figure out just how helpful that NPC would be.

 

[Nail]

Meh, its not any of the psionic powers (After all, Attraction gives a Will Save, so it isn't fair to include). Just the Psicrystal. Allow a +3 Diplomacy familiar and you can do exactly the same thing without using the XPH.

Ah. Good.

And really, a +3 bonus to Diplomacy from a familiar (generally speaking) is hardly a problem....on it's own.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Ah. Good.

And really, a +3 bonus to Diplomacy from a familiar (generally speaking) is hardly a problem....on it's own.

Heehee, I agree. Now watch a series of fairly reasonable bonuses turn into a nightmare!

Half-elf, rolls 18 Charisma and 14 Intelligence. That's +6 to Diplomacy from race and stats. Starts off as Psion: Telepath with 4 ranks each in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) taking a Friendly Psicrystal (+3 typeless to Diplomacy). Takes a level in Warlock, selecting the Beguiling Influence invocation (+6 typeless bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate) as her only invocation and ramping up Bluff and Sense Motive with 1 ranks each and Diplomacy by 1 (paying 2 points for the Diplomacy crossclass). Next level she goes Wizard: Enchanter, taking 1 rank in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), the final rank in Diplomacy (paying 2 points again), and selecting a Mink Familiar (+3 typeless to Diplomacy, and I made this one up). And feats? Skill Focus and Negotiator of course!

Now she has:

+4 Charisma, +2 racial half-elf, +6 Typeless Beguiling Influence, +3 Typeless Friendly Psicrystal, +3 Typeless Mink Familiar, +3 Typeless Skill Focus, +2 Typeless Negotiator, +6 from ranks +6 synergy from the 3 synergy skills = +35

Enjoy

 

[IcyCool]

Sounds like you two are handling things fine. I hope you do allow him to use that amazing Diplomacy skill, rather than nerfing it....but that's just IMO.

That's what I want to do, allow him to use it. I also want to make it challenging for him. What fun is doing something cool if you never fail? It gets old, very quickly. I think I'll use a combination of Rich's system (as it tends to break down less than the RAW), and the time restrictions that Coredump mentioned.

You've got to be joking. Just because you want to help out a friend doesn't mean you give them all your stuff. I have a really good friend named Kyle. I've known him since junior high school. I'd do a lot for the guy, including getting my arse kicked in a fight, if it ever came to that. But if Kyle came to my home and asked me to give him all my stuff, I'd laugh in his face.

That comment was somewhat in jest.

Thanks everyone for your posts, it's been helpful.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think I'll use a combination of Rich's system (as it tends to break down less than the RAW), and the time restrictions that Coredump mentioned.

Be very careful with Burlew's system. It breaks down in the opposite direction (for example: Robert, the level 20 Wizard asks his true-love Melissa, the level 20 Cleric to pass the salt. She has no reason not to pass the salt. But he has a rather large chance of failing)

 

[IcyCool]

Be very careful with Burlew's system. It breaks down in the opposite direction (for example: Robert, the level 20 Wizard asks his true-love Melissa, the level 20 Cleric to pass the salt. She has no reason not to pass the salt. But he has a rather large chance of failing)

Point taken, I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Point taken, I'll keep an eye on it.

Bah!

All that means is that you should only use Diplomacy when it matters.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Bah!

All that means is that you should only use Diplomacy when it matters.

But that's an entirely arbitrary decision-point. What about if Robert, who is being killed by demon-spiders, asks Melissa to save him, even though it is a holiday where adherents of her religion are not supposed to engage in combat or cast spells. You'd roll Diplomacy that time, right, since it isn't trivial? But now Robert automatically fails. Sorry Robert.

 

[frankthedm]

Diplomacy lets the user influence one NPC at a time.

DIPLOMACY (CHA)
Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

Action: Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check.

Try Again: Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.

Special: A half-elf has a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks.

If you have the Negotiator feat, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Influencing NPC Attitudes
Use the table below to determine the effectiveness of Diplomacy checks (or Charisma checks) made to influence the attitude of a nonplayer character, or wild empathy checks made to influence the attitude of an animal or magical beast.

Initial
Attitude New Attitude (DC to achieve)
Hostile Unfriendly Indifferent Friendly Helpful
Hostile Less than 20 20 25 35 50
Unfriendly Less than 5 5 15 25 40
Indifferent — Less than 1 1 15 30
Friendly — — Less than 1 1 20
Helpful — — — Less than 1 1
Attitude Means Possible Actions
Hostile Will take risks to hurt you Attack, interfere, berate, flee
Unfriendly Wishes you ill Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult
Indifferent Doesn’t much care Socially expected interaction
Friendly Wishes you well Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid