Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[IcyCool]

But that's an entirely arbitrary decision-point. What about if Robert, who is being killed by demon-spiders, asks Melissa to save him, even though it is a holiday where adherents of her religion are not supposed to engage in combat or cast spells. You'd roll Diplomacy that time, right, since it isn't trivial? But now Robert automatically fails. Sorry Robert.

That's an awfully contrived scenario. I have to admit, my gut tells me that there could be a situation where this breaks down in the opposite direction. But I just fed my gut a chocolate bar, and it could be thinking strange things. If I run into the reverse breakdown situation, I'll rule it then. Players don't get nearly as uppity if you bend or make rulings to help them.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's an awfully contrived scenario. I have to admit, my gut tells me that there could be a situation where this breaks down in the opposite direction. But I just fed my gut a chocolate bar, and it could be thinking strange things. If I run into the reverse breakdown situation, I'll rule it then. Players don't get nearly as uppity if you bend or make rulings to help them.

Contrived, admittedly, but the point is this:

With Burlew's system at high levels, you have two kinds of characters: The guy that maxed out Diplomacy, who gets along fine, and then everyone else who didn't.

For those who didn't, they either automatically fail to get any similarly-leveled NPCs to do anything they ever ask, even pass the salt, *or* you throw in Patryn's "Only use Diplomacy when it matters rule" in which case they ask for something and then start praying the GM decides it doesn't matter because they automatically fail if Diplomacy is rolled and they automatically win if the GM lets them do so because it "doesn't matter." So essentially, you fix it for the one guy (Bard, Telepath, Social Rogue, etc) and for everyone else, the system might as well not exist--everything depends on the GM deciding whether or not it "matters," which determines success or failure immediately.

 

[Nail]

So essentially, you fix it for the one guy (Bard, Telepath, Social Rogue, etc) and for everyone else, the system might as well not exist--

...But considering on which end the problems generally lie, it seems like a fine solution.

The point is to guide the player in making his PC-creation descisions......not to whom to pass the salt.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But that's an entirely arbitrary decision-point.

Of course it is!

It's the point where the DM says, "No, he doesn't want to do X."

If the character wants to do X, and will say yes no matter who asks, then there's no need for Diplomacy.

Diplomacy only matters when you need to convince the other person to do something they wouldn't normally do.

Passing the salt and saving your lover when it's within your power and you want to are things people would normally do. Accordingly, no Diplomacy roll is needed.

If you need to convince someone to break their very-important-to-themselves vows to their God, then, yes, you probably need to roll some Diplomacy. In which case, "I love you, but I love God more." It's happened.

 

[Bront]

Half-elf, rolls 18 Charisma and 14 Intelligence. That's +6 to Diplomacy from race and stats. Starts off as Psion: Telepath with 4 ranks each in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) taking a Friendly Psicrystal (+3 typeless to Diplomacy). Takes a level in Warlock, selecting the Beguiling Influence invocation (+6 typeless bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate) as her only invocation and ramping up Bluff and Sense Motive with 1 ranks each and Diplomacy by 1 (paying 2 points for the Diplomacy crossclass). Next level she goes Wizard: Enchanter, taking 1 rank in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), the final rank in Diplomacy (paying 2 points again), and selecting a Mink Familiar (+3 typeless to Diplomacy, and I made this one up). And feats? Skill Focus and Negotiator of course!

Scary as that is, it doesn't work only because you can't raise a cross class skill beyond half the max rank of a class skill. So you loose some of the synergy bonuses and rank bonuses (Darn, only +29)

 

[Rystil Arden]

If the character wants to do X, and will say yes no matter who asks, then there's no need for Diplomacy.

But what if they might do X but are unsure? Burlew's rules say that in all of these cases, many characters who don't max out in Diplomacy automatically fail. Actually, there is a perverse way around this, however. If Robert tells Melissa, "My love, please don't save me. Your minor holiday is more important" then he is guaranteed to fail to convince her not to commit the minor sin of breaking the holiday and she will save him.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Scary as that is, it doesn't work only because you can't raise a cross class skill beyond half the max rank of a class skill. So you loose some of the synergy bonuses and rank bonuses (Darn, only +29)

Incorrect. All of those are class skills of Telepath, so even though they are not class for Wizard or Warlock, you can still raise them to the max (if you pay double). Check page 59 of the PH for rules on max ranks when multiclassing.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Unless I have all foes/enemies attack him on-sight, he's got a decent chance of talking them down, giving him all of their stuff, and starting new lives as farmers.

Easy, peasy. That 1 minute requirement for Diplomacy gives you all you need.

"Halt travelers! Dick Turpin demands his tithe!"
"Greetings Sir Turpin, I will gladly pay your tithe but wish to speak with you for a moment-"
"Thank ye kindly traveler but I've already found my religion."
"Oh, it's no religion I meant to give you though I can help you in that regard as well-"
"You can help by handing over your purse with less lip."
"I mean no offense-"
"Nor do I but you may receive it. Now the next man to speak 'thout handing over coin will be gifted by a dozen clothyard shafts."
"But I-"
*twa-twa-twaang*twang*swish*woosh* thud-thud-thud-th-th-thud!
"Ouch!"

or

"Raaarh! Gronk hungry!"
"Mighty Gronk, I bow before your awesome might. You truly are ruler of the forest...."
"Thank you little man! Gronk like you! Talk pretty while Gronk kill your friends and maybe Gronk let you go."
"Err, that wasn't quite where I was going..."
"Raaarh! Gronk hungry!"

Plus there's the rules on Sense Motive.

SENSE MOTIVE (WIS)

Check: A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed (see the Bluff skill). You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.

Sense Motive could then show "hey, he's screwin' wit my head!" and make them hostile all over again.

That's fun? Maybe for the paladin. I know the player would enjoy it. But I run a game with four other players. Watching the Paladin smack everyone around with Diplomacy is probably not high on their fun list.

You can help that by using non-sentient creatures or those who don't speak his language. Go ahead, diplomacize the gray render, I dare you.

 

[DragonTurtle]

Since the King example is being used quite often, wouldn't someone on hand be using detect magic on anyone entering the king's presence. "Wait I am getting something off that warrior coming in. Call the king's wizard in and detain this man."

After the wizard investigates. "It appears the circlet and cloak have powerful but subtle enhancements to influence whoever the wearer talks to. My guess is that this person has come to trick the king, and that is treason! Off with his head!"

 

[Bront]

Incorrect. All of those are class skills of Telepath, so even though they are not class for Wizard or Warlock, you can still raise them to the max (if you pay double). Check page 59 of the PH for rules on max ranks when multiclassing.

Oops, wish I knew that a while ago. Oh well, no big harm. Thanks