Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.

[IcyCool]

It looks like the player min maxed Diplomancy, min maxing is always going to cause problems.

Agreed.

 

[Nail]

He is a Diplomacy-focused character. But he's an Exalted Diplomacy-focused character, and a Paladin to boot.

At this point, I'd let him have his fun.

...so long as his actions are both Paladin-ish and Exalted.

Good luck with that.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

...so long as his actions are both Paladin-ish and Exalted.

Exactly my point!

 

[IcyCool]

In other words, a character who has focused extensively on making himself persuasive.

I believe the original reason for this was because he wanted to use the "redemption" rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds. *shudder* I should have never let anything from that book in my game.

He is a Diplomacy-focused character. But he's an Exalted Diplomacy-focused character, and a Paladin to boot.

At this point, I'd let him have his fun.

Unless I have all foes/enemies attack him on-sight, he's got a decent chance of talking them down, giving him all of their stuff, and starting new lives as farmers. That's fun? Maybe for the paladin. I know the player would enjoy it. But I run a game with four other players. Watching the Paladin smack everyone around with Diplomacy is probably not high on their fun list.

Now, I've spoken to the player about it, and he's made leaps and bounds worth of progress about this. I feel that he is growing as a roleplayer. He's taking notice of the other players desire to have some of the spotlight. He sat down with me and tried to roleplay a haggling encounter (Diplomacy can be used to haggle apparently, whoo-ray for CV). I feel that I'm growing as a DM by trying to effectively deal with him. He's of the mind that he takes these super high numbers to represent that his character is good at something that he can't or doesn't think he can represent role-playing. I'm of the mind that you don't play a character you don't feel you can effectively represent through role-playing. So we're coming at this from different angles. But at least he's trying. And so I'm trying to come up with something that will make that challenging, rather than pathetically easy.

I guess I'll just have to set a limit on what each NPC is willing to do. No trading strings for castles, no matter how convincing you are.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Diplomancy

There is a book by Penumbra called ... er, forgot the name of the book. Anyway. Its about the whole politics/debate thing and has a nice set of indepth rules for this sort of thing.

While I agree that D20 is a roleplaying game, I also don't expect my players to be as well trained conversationists or music players as their characters are. Just like I dont expect them to toss off a fireball or weild a Glaive.

Anyway, one issue you have is allowing feats/items/abilities from lots of sources. This can cause balance issues, as you are discovering.

To curb this enthusiasm, without stepping on the players toes, I agree with the idea of setting time requirements for the check, and grant penalties for going over/under.
{Thanks Coredump.. I am stealing that idea! }

Also, in some circumstance.. such as the King deal you suggest.. it would be completely normal for a visitor to divest themselves of weapons, cloaks, circlets, and other magic items before being allowed into the kings audience chamber.

Using the Gianttip variant above, time impact penalties, and smart NPC's can draw this min-maxed Diplomat back into reign.

If you use Penumbra's system, you will need to allow the player to redo his sheet, which could be useful in a couple of ways.

One last item.. as the player is obviously enamored with the skill, create adventures that include encouters pivoting on the use of this skill. Give the party XP for defeating them and pit them against CR equivilents. Ensure that the deals he brokers follow him around.. as an Asimer Palidon it should not be long before people learn who he is and how good he is with his word.

"Excuse me sire, but I beg of you, can you go to the money lender and ask that he not foreclose on me and my 12 children this month? Next month the mountain passes will be open and my family can make it across to my sisters place. Please sire? My children will die if you cannot do this!"
The moneylender is a ranking member of the local guild and is definately hostile to a Palidin looking to stop him from his perfectly legal money....and quite persuasive himself! Instant moral dilemna! Whats a Palidon to do {with the whole town watching....}




Also, isn't there something somewhere about Palidins and wealth?

 

[IcyCool]

Coredump, that's a really good idea. I'll have to mull it over.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Now that I have a player with a disgustingly high Diplomacy skill (+30's), I have discovered just how unuseable the Diplomacy skill is. He can turn every, single, indifferent or better NPC into Helpful.

True.

Every one. Without a chance for failure.

Yep. This is an extremely diplomatic character we're talking about. People are going to start getting "good vibes" off him from the moment he walks up to them.

I know that Diplomacy is not mind control. But my question is, just how far will a friendly or helpful NPC go? Will the helpful street waif give the character the only piece of bread she's been able to scrounge up all week? Will the helpful king allow the character the use of his armies? Will the helpful Wizard let the character borrow a powerful magical item for a year?

I'm not sure why some DMs have such a hard time adjudicating Diplomacy. A Helpful NPC is exactly that, helpful. Nothing more than that. Take the child with the bread. Diplomacy means that she's going to treat the PC as a good friend, and go out of her way to help him. She'll probably split her bread with the PC. That means she's going to be a bit hungry, but she's willing to put up with some hunger for a friend. Would she give him all her bread, though? Probably not, because if she does, she's going to starve.

If a king has a very good merchant friend, does that mean he's going to loan out his army to said merchant friend at his request? Of course not. His army is for protecting his kingdom, regardless of how much he'd like to help his friend. But he might send a few soldiers with his friend to help protect him. Or give him a royal charter to conscript a company of mercenaries from the local fighters' guild.

Unless I have all foes/enemies attack him on-sight, he's got a decent chance of talking them down, giving him all of their stuff, and starting new lives as farmers.

You've got to be joking. Just because you want to help out a friend doesn't mean you give them all your stuff. I have a really good friend named Kyle. I've known him since junior high school. I'd do a lot for the guy, including getting my arse kicked in a fight, if it ever came to that. But if Kyle came to my home and asked me to give him all my stuff, I'd laugh in his face.

Those foes/enemies might be convinced not to attack the PC and perhaps even help him in some way, but he isn't going to get them to give him everything they have, then abandon their former lives entirely.

Helpful means that an NPC is willing to take risks to help out the PC, but it doesn't mean he's willing to completely abandon self-interest and do anything and everything the PC asks. Not even close.

Also note that an NPC can be Hostile, without attacking the PC on sight. Hostile means the NPC wants to attack the PC on sight. That the NPC is that opposed to the PC. It doesn't mean a cunning NPC must attack the PC on sight, rather than plot against him in the shadows.

 

[Nail]

I believe the original reason for this was because he wanted to use the "redemption" rules in the Book of Exalted Deeds. *shudder* I should have never let anything from that book in my game.

The book is fine...so long as the requirements of being Exalted are followed. I use it in my game without ill-effect. My cleric has reformed several of the bad guys in our game. (Nope, they are not now my PC's slaves...they're just friends. You all know about friends, right? After all; who do you game with? Your slaves? )

He's of the mind that he takes these super high numbers to represent that his character is good at something that he can't or doesn't think he can represent role-playing. I'm of the mind that you don't play a character you don't feel you can effectively represent through role-playing.

Sounds like you two are handling things fine. I hope you do allow him to use that amazing Diplomacy skill, rather than nerfing it....but that's just IMO.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The scary thing is that you can get Diplomacy in the +30s at level 3 with no exaltedness and such at all, just using a half-elf with the core books, Complete Arcane, and XPH

 

[Nail]

....uh-oh. XPH trouble....how.....err, unusual.