Diplomatic Immunity: Almost Ready Maybe?

[Bront]

As for the Shaman being a double caster...so is every other gestalt you've made that started as two spellcasting classes, (edit) with the Arcanist actually gaining abilities from a simple Sorcerer/Wizard combination .

No switching for me, I'll play what I chose as I like the flavour of the class...what follows are just some constructive comments about why I think it's a little weak.

Merging a Cleric/Druid, they gain nothing apart from the special abilities and spells (as they have exactly the same BAB, Saves, HP, and of course it got stuck with Druid armour/weapons which subtracts from the Cleric) so that's somewhat of a downside too when they lost a lot of druid powers with no replacements.

Most of the domain powers are fairly weak 1/day things so that's not a great selling point, and the spells the spirits can grant are restricted by their power level so that's not terribly good either, especially when you only get to select one full domain at 1st level having protection forced on you.

For what it's worth, I thought the Shamen was fairly well done. I'd have trouble gaging the power of the Spirit powers without actualy playing it though.

 

[Rystil Arden]

As for the Shaman being a double caster...so is every other gestalt you've made that started as two spellcasting classes, (edit) with the Arcanist actually gaining abilities from a simple Sorcerer/Wizard combination .

No switching for me, I'll play what I chose as I like the flavour of the class...what follows are just some constructive comments about why I think it's a little weak.

Merging a Cleric/Druid, they gain nothing apart from the special abilities and spells (as they have exactly the same BAB, Saves, HP, and of course it got stuck with Druid armour/weapons which subtracts from the Cleric) so that's somewhat of a downside too when they lost a lot of druid powers with no replacements.

Most of the domain powers are fairly weak 1/day things so that's not a great selling point, and the spells the spirits can grant are restricted by their power level so that's not terribly good either, especially when you only get to select one full domain at 1st level having protection forced on you.

Well, while it is true that they don't get any BAB, HD, armour proficiencies, etc, remember that they are one of the few doublecasters that I allowed to keep most of those things. Also, don't underestimate domain powers. You can get feats with those , and adding new spells to your list is always fun, especially since you can mix and match (Horrid Wilting today, Time Stop tomorrow ). And then Channel Spirit is the homologue of Wild Shape. We'll see how it plays out, though because I admit that no playtester selected Shaman (Though I had a toned-down non-gestalt Shaman that someone played to very good effect )

 

[unleashed]

For what it's worth, I thought the Shamen was fairly well done. I'd have trouble gaging the power of the Spirit powers without actualy playing it though.

Well lets look at the comparison. Animal Companion --> Spirit Companion (but really that's just the Clerics basic two domains, and as far as I know not something that fights), Turn Undead --> Turn Spirits, Wild Empathy --> Spirit Empathy, Nature Sense --> Spirit Sense. The Spirit Pacts probably replace the abilities a Druid gains over the next 19 levels with versatility if not power, but without more information I can't say that Channel Spirit equals the Wild Shape it replaces. Seems pretty much a near straight gestalt Cleric/Druid, except for perhaps a possible reduction in power on Spirit Pacts/Channel Spirit. Pretty good on a straight gestalt, but most of the other classes gain something above being a normal gestalt.

Edit: Guess there are just some poor gestalts, and this is one of them. :\

 

[Rystil Arden]

The Fatiguing is a HUGE disadvantage, particularly at low levels.

Fatigued
A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

Exhausted
An exhausted character moves at half speed and takes a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.

So, a first level Ecomancer cast's a first level spell in an unnatural environment, and is at best Fatigued, Potentialy Exhausted. One spell, and the character is rendered nearly useless. The extra unnatural drain combined with the fatiguing realy hurts.

Keep in mind, the second Vasha ever expends 3/4 of her spell points, she colapses unable to move or lift herself for an hour. (Str -1 net)

The casting is open and flexable, but full druid progression is not full cleric progression as far as general power and usefullness.

Now, in a natural environment, they're fantastic, but they are so tied to spellcasting with the lower BAB and HP.

They do get more Druid abilities than I thought (low level druid powers aren't as memorable, so I forgot, sorry), and Wildshape can be usefull, but their spellcasting aspect could be cripling.

Keep in mind that pretty much everywhere except Arris, Wildspace, and cities may qualify for natural though. Also, the spell point regen thing is really quite powerful (witness Alire the Ecomancer opponent of the PCs in Destiny's Tears who kept returning to a natural area to really wear the PCs down).

 

[Bront]

Well lets look at the comparison. Animal Companion --> Spirit Companion (but really that's just the Clerics basic two domains, and as far as I know not something that fights), Turn Undead --> Turn Spirits, Wild Empathy --> Spirit Empathy, Nature Sense --> Spirit Sense. The Spirit Pacts probably replace the abilities a Druid gains over the next 19 levels with versatility if not power, but without more information I can't say that Channel Spirit equals the Wild Shape it replaces. Seems pretty much a near straight gestalt Cleric/Druid, except for perhaps a possible reduction in power on Spirit Pacts/Channel Spirit. Pretty good on a straight gestalt, but most of the other classes gain something above being a normal gestalt.

Edit: Guess there are just some poor gestalts, and this is one of them. :\

The Gestalt casters get a bit more out of things than the non-casters, especialy since the way he often does it, you don't differentiate between the actual spells once you're casting, so you can lean more towards one or the other class at different levels and different days, and you're unlikely to run out of spells. (And the Ecomancer has that problem, perhaps enhanced, hense my complaint about that them)

 

[Bront]

Keep in mind that pretty much everywhere except Arris, Wildspace, and cities may qualify for natural though. Also, the spell point regen thing is really quite powerful (witness Alire the Ecomancer opponent of the PCs in Destiny's Tears who kept returning to a natural area to really wear the PCs down).

Still, someone colapsing when the tank isn't empty just seems bad... but yes, the 1 hour regen is powerfull when it's available.

And I miss Wild Empathy (Honestly, it's strange to get an Animal companion, but not empathy)

 

[Rystil Arden]

The Spirit Pacts probably replace the abilities a Druid gains over the next 19 levels with versatility if not power

Hmm...the Druid's other abilities (not including Wildshape) are Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Venom Immunity, A Thousand Faces, Timeless Body. I would say that Spirit Pacts are significantly better than that suite (considering when some of those powers are learned).

Pretty good on a straight gestalt, but most of the other classes gain something above being a normal gestalt.

I gave extra power mainly for gestalts that I believed to be unbalancedly bad by the way the gestalt system works. For instance, the poor Arcanist is stuck with Wizard/Sorcerer in everything, and is thus much much worse than Wizard/Cleric would be, so I gave it free powers, whereas Shaman is not in such a bad spot.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Still, someone colapsing when the tank isn't empty just seems bad... but yes, the 1 hour regen is powerfull when it's available.

And I miss Wild Empathy (Honestly, it's strange to get an Animal companion, but not empathy)

That's only for Vasha because she has 6 or lower Strength

 

[unleashed]

Well, while it is true that they don't get any BAB, HD, armour proficiencies, etc, remember that they are one of the few doublecasters that I allowed to keep most of those things. Also, don't underestimate domain powers. You can get feats with those , and adding new spells to your list is always fun, especially since you can mix and match (Horrid Wilting today, Time Stop tomorrow ). And then Channel Spirit is the homologue of Wild Shape. We'll see how it plays out, though because I admit that no playtester selected Shaman (Though I had a toned-down non-gestalt Shaman that someone played to very good effect )

Don't forget some domain powers are completely useless too like gaining class skills.

I think the problem with the spirit pacts may be they're too diverse...instead of being 1 (minor), 3 (lesser), 5 (major), 7 (greater), 9 (elder) perhaps they should be 3 (minor), 6 (major), 9 (elder).

Channel Spirit doesn't have nearly as many uses though and of course I have no idea how long it lasts or what it can do exactly...undefined powers do tend create the appearance of weakness.

 

[Bront]

I gave extra power mainly for gestalts that I believed to be unbalancedly bad by the way the gestalt system works. For instance, the poor Arcanist is stuck with Wizard/Sorcerer in everything, and is thus much much worse than Wizard/Cleric would be, so I gave it free powers, whereas Shaman is not in such a bad spot.

I'd argue that the Arcanist pure gestalt is more powerful, because the deficiencies of the Wizard is spells cast, the sorcerer spell selection. You get the best of both with the Arcanist, even more so with the instant learn power.