Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[kreynolds]

No, a 20% drain on the pooled resources of a party would equate to a 20% drain on the individual resources of the party.

Assume party members contribute a numerical amount of resources. Say they each contribute "10" resources. Thus, the total party pool of resources is "40" for a four member party.

Now, assume an encounter drains 20% of the party resources. This is "8" (40/5 = 8). Thus, the proportional share of the resources used by each individual party member will be "2", or exactly 20% of their resources.

Ah. I gotcha now. My bad.

Apparently you were put off by some basic math then.

No. I was put off by your attitude. At no time was your attitude warranted, and it still isn't even now. I made a mistake, and I'm not too proud to admit that, but that doesn't grant you the right to be uncivil about it.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

 

[LokiDR]

Ah. I gotcha now. My bad.

Damn, I was getting all ready to try to create a mathmatical proof. Arguing is so much less fun when others agree

What I am surprized about is the complicated math that is going into something like balancing encounters. No matter what math you use, if the players are exceptionally stupid or smart, lucky or unlucky, the encounter can swing to much more difficult or much easier.

Being a GM is an art, and rules are supposed to be guides. Any system that requires more work to determine challenge is acting contrarry to the concept of D&D: quick and fun. How many rules are unrealistic, like falling damage? It is the rule because it is simple and represents something like real world actions (farther you fall, the more it is likely to hurt).

 

[WizarDru]

UK's System
Each creature has a challenge rating. This challenge rating assumes nothing. It's challenge rating is on par with a PC of equal level. How many PCs are in the party affects the EL. How many monsters and what type of monsters, whether similar, different, or both, further affects the EL.

The drawback to UK's system when compared to the core rules is that it involves far more math when figuring out ELs. However, the benefit is that it removes the guesswork from ECLs, and it is hands down a far better system when used to create custom templates, monsters, and even classes. [/B]

I'll have to take your word for it. After having scanned the PDF document, and then listening to both you, Anubis and UK, I only get more confused, not less. This system may be more precise...but it isn't useful to me, because it makes more work than it saves. If I have to spend an extra hour of prep time to translate things into this system, then I've saved no time at all, and I'm no more precise than I was before, when I used CRs as a basis and eye-balled it.

As for ECL equaling CR...that's doesn't make much sense to me. Monsters only get to use their abilities once, as often as not. Being able to teleport at will is not nearly as valuable for a monster as it would be for a PC. The same would be true about most of the monster's abilities. A Bodak's power is terrifying...but much more horrific in the hands of a player than a monster. Especially since most Bodaks don't hang around people with similar complementary powers, like an arcanist, rogue or illusionist.

 

[Grog]

It's a matter of perspective and preference. I find it funky that a PC's CR equals its ECL, but a monster's does not.

Didn't you read the rest of my post? There's a reason for this. That reason being that the ECL for a monster assumes higher stats and magic items, while the MM version does not. It makes a big difference.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy, UK. Good to see you.

Hiya mate!

So, if I understand this correctly, your system equates a Winterwight as being an appropriate challenge for a party of 4 52nd-level PCs?

52nd-level party of 4-5 = El +/-0 (Moderate)
34th-level party of 4-5 = EL +2 (Tough)
26th-level party of 4-5 = EL +4 (Difficult 50/50)
17th-level party of 4-5 = EL +6 (Very Difficult)
13th-level party of 4-5 = EL +8 (Virtually impossible)

Well, we already agreed to disagree, I think.

Didn't you mention before (when we discussed this previously) that the PCs had a lot of NPC help during that fight or somesuch...?

With the Winterwight having DR 20/+6, AC 46, and Fast Healing 10 its going to be very difficult to damage by your characters, and being automatically hasted (feat) its going to get four attacks per round with the blightfire attack which surely will spell the death of any 17th-level character!? At best thats going to be a 50% chance of successfully saving for a 30th-level character and you have to make the save each round for seven rounds! Explain how any 17th-level character who got hit by the Winterwight is going to make even a quarter of those saves? They are going to be down 20 permanent Constitution at least; as a result of every hit!

Your system may actually work for you, but it just was too much work for me, especially as I tend to use templates, classed monsters and custom creatures on a regular basis.

But I have done all the hardwork for you.

Your system actually defeats, to me, what the whole purpose of the CR/EL system is, namely to give me a quick benchmark to work against when setting up encounters for my game.

To me its just as quick than the official rules, but then I am equally familiar with both of course.

Added to that the official rules totally collapse at epic levels making my system a necessity at those levels - which was of course the target for the initial design.

I also tend to use a lot of material from other sources, such as last game, when I used Mark Chance's Death-Who-Hops. I'd have to rework his numbers to your system, and any material so imported.

Thats true, but when I have my system as the default standard you won't have to rework stuff.

Further, I just don't agree with the number your system generates. I think it's swell that it delineates much more accurately the factors in a creature's difficulty....but unless I'm misinterpeting the numbers, they just don't gibe, for me.

You are misiterpreting the numbers.

To return to the Winterwight: I had a party of 6 17th-18th level characters engage him, in a playing field that levelled several of the party's abilities (a field in the midst of a powerful blacksnow-storm).

Well he does have control weather at will.

Flight was essentially eliminated, ranged attacks were cut down, mobility was drastically reduced. Some players were in danger of being blown away. It's a CR 23 creature. The most powerful weapon possessed was a +5 Blessed Holy weapon (Shatterspike, in the hands of the Paladin). It was the most ambitious combat I had run since the party faced a buffed-up Nightscale two years prior.

While he didn't go down like a ten-pin, and it was a hard fight...no one died, and they used about 35-40% of their resources.

How you lost no PCs is a complete mystery to me!?

I would expect any 17th-level character in melee range taking the brunt of the Winterwights attacks to be dead after the second round thanks to blightfire.

The only thing I can think is that it was quite simply the luckiest day of those PCs lives...? Which, if true is hardly an indictment of my system.

The idea that the party wouldn't have been ready to engage him for another 35 levels or so just seems...well, silly.

Once you grasp the CR/EL relationship it all falls into place, until then it can seem disjointed.

As for casting imprisonment on the Scorpion...Elminster most likely has spell resistance, if he's buffed.

He has SR 21 which is hardly likely to impede anyone capable of casting Imprisonment.

And regardless, it's one spell....that's not even close to 20%.

Exactly, and Elminster is CR 39 by all accounts.

 

[kreynolds]

Damn, I was getting all ready to try to create a mathmatical proof. Arguing is so much less fun when others agree

Sorry. Then I won't be so quick to admit my blunder next time. How's that?

What I am surprized about is the complicated math that is going into something like balancing encounters. No matter what math you use, if the players are exceptionally stupid or smart, lucky or unlucky, the encounter can swing to much more difficult or much easier.

Being a GM is an art, and rules are supposed to be guides. Any system that requires more work to determine challenge is acting contrarry to the concept of D&D: quick and fun. How many rules are unrealistic, like falling damage? It is the rule because it is simple and represents something like real world actions (farther you fall, the more it is likely to hurt).

The reason I like it so much is that the added work is worth it to me. Basically, to give you an idea of how high I rate the importance of an accurate system, I was essentially baffled by the high ECL ratings of some of the player races, particularly the fire genasi and the kir-lanan. Such high ECL modifiers made be grimace, especially after I was able to break them down, comparing them to the average power level of each individual class level of the various classes.

In the end, I just really wanted an accurate system to properly judge the ECL modifier of a monster or player race. I also create so many custom monsters, templates, prestige classes, prestige races (basically just templates but with a class-like progression), feats, and special qualities and abilities, that it was extraordinarily beneficial to me to use UK's system.

Even though it's more work than usual, UK's system does an excellent job breaking down CRs.

 

[AuraSeer]

52nd-level party of 4-5 = El +/-0 (Moderate)
34th-level party of 4-5 = EL +2 (Tough)
26th-level party of 4-5 = EL +4 (Difficult 50/50)
17th-level party of 4-5 = EL +6 (Very Difficult)
13th-level party of 4-5 = EL +8 (Virtually impossible)

Hold on a second now. You're saying that this monster has only a 50/50 chance of beating a 26th-level party, but it still has a "moderate" chance of beating a 52nd-level party?

That doesn't make the slightest little bit of sense. I've looked at a couple of example parties; any encounter appropriate to the lower group would be stomped like grass under the boots of the 50+ party.

Either I totally misunderstand what you're trying to say, or you've been smoking the good crack.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

UK's System
Each creature has a challenge rating. This challenge rating assumes nothing. It's challenge rating is on par with a PC of equal level. How many PCs are in the party affects the EL. How many monsters and what type of monsters, whether similar, different, or both, further affects the EL.

Exactly.

The drawback to UK's system when compared to the core rules is that it involves far more math when figuring out ELs.

Until you realise that Encounter Levels are relative in my system.

However, the benefit is that it removes the guesswork from ECLs, and it is hands down a far better system when used to create custom templates, monsters, and even classes.

Appreciate the love mate!

UK's system is far from complete,

We are getting there...eventually.

but the concept is sound. It's also getting quite bloated, but I suppose that's the cost of accuracy and precision.

It goes into as much detail as it needs to. Its much more detailed than WotC's attempt to do the same thing in Savage Species and even then you still have to fudge the results a lot.

 

[kreynolds]

Didn't you read the rest of my post?

Yes. It just wasn't convincing.

There's a reason for this. That reason being that the ECL for a monster assumes higher stats and magic items, while the MM version does not. It makes a big difference.

But that's not the only factor. The other factor is that every challenge rating for monsters assumes a party of 4 to 5 going up against it, which is the primary reason for it being so low. Stats and equipment are not the only cause of the CR being lower, and I don't think it's even the largest contributing factor of the lower CR.

Now, it's possible that the FRCS uses ECL to determine character wealth because someone noticed that the races in there had ECL modifiers that were too high. Perhaps they thought using ECL to determine character wealth would help round that out a bit, give them a little more punch, bring them that much closer to their actual ECL. I find that a strong possibility.

 

[kreynolds]

Hold on a second now. You're saying that this monster has only a 50/50 chance of beating a 26th-level party, but it still has a "moderate" chance of beating a 52nd-level party?

That doesn't make the slightest little bit of sense. I've looked at a couple of example parties; any encounter appropriate to the lower group would be stomped like grass under the boots of the 50+ party.

Either I totally misunderstand what you're trying to say, or you've been smoking the good crack.

The difference in the rate at which you gain power between levels 1-20 and 21-40 is substantial. At epic level, you advance slower...about 60% the normal rate (rough estimate - I think it might be closer to 75%, but I'm not sure). Your feats get really cool, and you can pull off some amazing stuff with your skills, but just look at the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus advancement. They're every other level. That's definately a decrease in the rate of power gained per level.