Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there AuraSeer!

Hold on a second now. You're saying that this monster has only a 50/50 chance of beating a 26th-level party, but it still has a "moderate" chance of beating a 52nd-level party?

No, its a difficult 50/50 encounter for a party of 4-5 26th-level characters but it is a moderate challenge for a party of 4-5 52nd-level characters.

A moderate opponent has virtually no chance against the PCs.

That doesn't make the slightest little bit of sense. I've looked at a couple of example parties; any encounter appropriate to the lower group would be stomped like grass under the boots of the 50+ party.

Exactly. Just as would a 52nd-level character.

Either I totally misunderstand what you're trying to say, or you've been smoking the good crack.

Likely the former.

 

[Storm Raven]

No. I was put off by your attitude. At no time was your attitude warranted, and it still isn't even now. I made a mistake, and I'm not too proud to admit that, but that doesn't grant you the right to be uncivil about it.

So saying "umm no" is uncivil in your estimation? My but you are a touchy person.

 

[WizarDru]

Didn't you mention before (when we discussed this previously) that the PCs had a lot of NPC help during that fight or somesuch...?

Nope, quite the opposite, in fact. They had a single NPC, who was a cohort, and only 11th level at that time. He was totally ineffectual in the fight, as were all of the animal companions and friendly shadows.

With the Winterwight having DR 20/+6, AC 46, and Fast Healing 10 its going to be very difficult to damage by your characters, and being automatically hasted (feat) its going to get four attacks per round with the blightfire attack which surely will spell the death of any 17th-level character!? At best thats going to be a 50% chance of successfully saving for a 30th-level character and you have to make the save each round for seven rounds! Explain how any 17th-level character who got hit by the Winterwight is going to make even a quarter of those saves?

Unless, of course, one of the PCs is a Hunter of the Dead, and immune to Undead Energy drains, and has several spells in place (as a cleric of Pelor) to negate most of the negative effects (as well as having a fire shield, just to tick the winterwight off).

How you lost no PCs is a complete mystery to me!?

I would expect any 17th-level character in melee range taking the brunt of the Winterwights attacks to be dead after the second round thanks to blightfire.

The only thing I can think is that it was quite simply the luckiest day of those PCs lives...? Which, if true is hardly an indictment of my system.

Actually, they considered it one of the most UNlucky. The Wiz/MoAA had a 40% chance to beat SR, and failed for 8 successive spells. The Druid and cleric/hunter of the dead had a significantly lower chance, and thus chose different tactics (such as summoning an Elder fire elemental and engaging the wight phsyically). The shadowdancer kept her distance and was well nigh undetectable. The Paladin got the holy hell beaten out of him, but has fantastic saves, and the cleric threw down a heal or two. The flying arcane archer was unable to harm the wight, but stayed out of the way, and thus was in no danger.

The battle was decided by a Disintegrate and a failed save. The wight was being cocky, to be sure...it had survived four rounds with barely any scratches, and took the time to destroy the bigby's hand, so it could savor the moment. But the wizard was holding onto a maze...just in case. Make no mistake, though, the players were highly prepared, very buffed and were tactically very good. But how any CR system can take that into account, I don't know. Which is rather my point.

 

[kreynolds]

So saying "umm no" is uncivil in your estimation? My but you are a touchy person.

The attitude conveyed by it, yes. I don't recall slighting you to deserve such treatment. If you did not intend to convey such an attitude, or if I misinterpreted your attitude, simply say so and I will take your word for it, but continuing along this line as you are does not improve your case.

Have it however you like, but I've found that a discussion can be far more interesting and progressive when the parties involved can converse in a civil tone, as it reduces the chances of a misunderstanding greatly.

 

[Anubis]

Hold on a second now. You're saying that this monster has only a 50/50 chance of beating a 26th-level party, but it still has a "moderate" chance of beating a 52nd-level party?

That doesn't make the slightest little bit of sense. I've looked at a couple of example parties; any encounter appropriate to the lower group would be stomped like grass under the boots of the 50+ party.

Either I totally misunderstand what you're trying to say, or you've been smoking the good crack.

No, you just haven't play epic enough to realize that the power gains as you get higher in level shrink. Level 1 to Level 2 is a 100% increase in power. Level 50 to Level 50 is only a 2% increase in power. Believe me, it may SOUND weird, but this don't work like a video game. The higher level you get, the less power you gain.

 

[kreynolds]

Make no mistake, though, the players were highly prepared, very buffed and were tactically very good.

In effect, they negated sizeable portions of the winterwight's CR. I don't think I need to say any more.

 

[kreynolds]

Level 50 to Level 50 is only a 2% increase in power.

Do you mean 50 to 51? Also, is the increase really that slow?! It doesn't seem like it, but maybe I've overlooked something.

 

[Storm Raven]

The attitude conveyed by it, yes.

The attitude conveyed by saying "umm, no" when you get something wrong is that you got something wrong. I'm still not seeing how this equates to slighting you.

You said "X".

I said "Umm, no. "X" is wrong. "Y" is correct."

Pretty bland treatment.

I don't recall slighting you to deserve such treatment. If you did not intend to convey such an attitude, or if I misinterpreted your attitude, simply say so and I will take your word for it, but continuing along this line as you are does not improve your case.

I don't think I need a case. I think that you, of the hyper touchy sensitivities should be examining your own personality to figure out why you determined that a bland correction was a "slight" or that you have been "treated" badly in some way.

 

[Storm Raven]

In effect, they negated sizeable portions of the winterwight's CR. I don't think I need to say any more.

They had abilities one would expect characters of their level to have and used them. How is that particularly surprising or unusual?

 

[LokiDR]

Limited use for new or epic?

Sorry. Then I won't be so quick to admit my blunder next time. How's that?

Naw, that would take the fun out of it. Maybe if you claimed to be Sean....

The reason I like it so much is that the added work is worth it to me. Basically, to give you an idea of how high I rate the importance of an accurate system, I was essentially baffled by the high ECL ratings of some of the player races, particularly the fire genasi and the kir-lanan. Such high ECL modifiers made be grimace, especially after I was able to break them down, comparing them to the average power level of each individual class level of the various classes.

In the end, I just really wanted an accurate system to properly judge the ECL modifier of a monster or player race. I also create so many custom monsters, templates, prestige classes, prestige races (basically just templates but with a class-like progression), feats, and special qualities and abilities, that it was extraordinarily beneficial to me to use UK's system.

Even though it's more work than usual, UK's system does an excellent job breaking down CRs.

There are no good rules for creating your own CRs, like the formulas for item costs. Savage Species calculation of ECL don't fit the bill, so I can see a need for extension of the current system. Also, Epic levels bring their own mess, challange ratings being one. Lots of things tend to break down at Epic levels.

On the other hand, the system you are talking about can not possibly take into account the specifics of my party. If I allow my party to use the cheesy deeper darkness-blindsight trick, encounters with creatures that do not have blindsight or tremorsense are easier. If my party focuses on fire damage, a creature weak to fire is easier, and a creature immune to fire damage gets a lot harder.

Every system needs to be adjusted to the specific party. For those of us who don't dabble in creating new races, PrC, or other game elements all that often (most DMs I susspect), what does this system offer? Is there a spreadsheet I can punch in 7 PCs of 5th level vs 3 girrillians and get a percent chance of the PCs winning?

This kind of complicated math for calculation of ELs would be nice if all the published material already used it, and I could just use the math for creating new elements. But I can't just grab the numbers from the UK system and use them as "better CRs". I don't have a need to convert, and it won't solve all the problems inherent in challenging a group of individuals.

As for Epic levels, I would call Epic D&D 3e and D&D 3e two different games. Epic levels have always been an addition to the standard rules, so I can accept the need to improve that addition. Not playing Epic games myself, I will leave that distinction to those that do.