Dire Tigers CR is WRONG.....

[WizarDru]

Originally posted by kreynolds In effect, they negated sizeable portions of the winterwight's CR. I don't think I need to say any more.

Well, unless that's a 'All Truths Are Not Unequal' kind of statement, then I'm not sure what you mean. The situation would modify the EL, to be sure...but they didn't have any unusual abilities that weren't available to other groups of 17-18th level characters. They didn't negate his CR...they prepared for it. He was still potentially deadly, and had dice rolls gone differently, they might likely have retreated with a couple of corpses. It wasn't a cakewalk, by any measure. But neither was it impossible, or even close to impossible.

Part of the issue is that 20% of resources can include character's LIVES. If one of the players had died, technically that would still be appropriate for the fight. Just as if someone died during a fight with an Ogre at 2nd level.

 

[kreynolds]

They had abilities one would expect characters of their level to have and used them. How is that particularly surprising or unusual?

If you face a fire elemental and you are immune to fire, you negate a sizeable portion of the fire elemental's CR, thus the EL is lower than normal, thus the experience gained is lower than normal. In the end, the challenge was lower than normal. My point is that the example of the fight with the winterwight is a poor one, as a sizeable portion of it's CR was negated by the party. That's not automatically a bad thing, but it certainly illustrates why the fight went better than it could would have.

 

[kreynolds]

The situation would modify the EL, to be sure...but they didn't have any unusual abilities that weren't available to other groups of 17-18th level characters.

Except that said abilities negated a sizeable portion of its CR, so it isn't a very good example when you are comparing CR systems. In either system, the given CR will certainly appear too high, but given the circumstances, that is not proof that either system is flawed.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't think I need a case.

Have it your way.

 

[LokiDR]

Make no mistake, though, the players were highly prepared, very buffed and were tactically very good. But how any CR system can take that into account, I don't know. Which is rather my point.

I think this is the reason I disagree with all this math for CR. Being DM has always been more art than science.

 

[Storm Raven]

If you face a fire elemental and you are immune to fire, you negate a sizeable portion of the fire elemental's CR, thus the EL is lower than normal, thus the experience gained is lower than normal.

You are acting as if it would be unusual for a party to have Protection from Elements type spells or scrolls prepared. For most mid to high level parties this is a dubious assumption for you to make. Having abilities that counter commonly appearing opponents is something that is a normal characteristic of high level parties.

In the end, the challenge was lower than normal. My point is that the example of the fight with the winterwight is a poor one, as a sizeable portion of it's CR was negated by the party. That's not automatically a bad thing, but it certainly illustrates why the fight went better than it could would have.

Other than the Hunter of the Dead's class ability, what was unusual about the party? Most clerics at high level have a negative energy protection or two on hand. Heal spells are not that unusual for a cleric to keep around either. The fighter got mauled and was healed a couple times. A powerful creature was summoned to help keep it at bay. The archer was flying, not unusual for a 17th level character. The shadowdancer was hard to see, also not unusual for a 17th level roguish character. The wizard nailed it with several spells, each with a decent chance of penetrating its SR and one got through.

I'm just not seeing where this party was particularly more effective than most other parties of similar level would have been.

 

[Storm Raven]

Have it your way.

You're the one taking about the blandest comment made on the net and turning it into some kind of a slight of your manhood. Not me. Perhaps you should think about that.

 

[kreynolds]

You are acting as if it would be unusual for a party to have Protection from Elements type spells or scrolls prepared.

Not at all.

Other than the Hunter of the Dead's class ability, what was unusual about the party?

I didn't say anything was unusual. I just said that the party's preparations allowed it to negated a sizeable portion of the winterwight's CR. If the average party is to be expected to negate that portion, then it's CR wouldn't be as high.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I have never in my life seen a "20% resource" encounter take up 20% of resources under either system. In fact, these encounters almost always use up only about 5-10% of the party's resources, which is probably the point kreynolds was trying to get across.

My point (which might be you're point too) is that a colossal scorpion at CR11 should take up 20% of resources to a party of four 9th level characters and since it's seems to be the opinion of a number of people on the board (self included) that without unusual circumstances it won't, it may be an even lower CR as compared to a higher one.

The 20% thing is just a discussion basis, not a mathematical calculation. Always has been, always will be.

Oh, agreed. It's a theoretical number based on the average over an infinite number of encounters with an infinite number of variations. A target more for the designers than GMs.

 

[kreynolds]

You're the one taking about the blandest comment made on the net and turning it into some kind of a slight of your manhood. Not me.

I never said it was a slight of my manhood. I simply said that I didn't appreciate your attitude. I didn't even ask for an apology. All I asked for was a clarification if I was mistaken in your attitude, and instead of providing that, you merely keep it up. Perhaps you should think about that.

Anyways, I'll leave it at that.