Dirty Fighting an Knockdown

[Storminator]

I agree. I think it is more like a wolf's Trip ability than a normal Trip attack. IMC I think I am going to add the bolded sections of the wolf's trip ability to the Knock-Down feat.

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Doesn't that make Knockdown REALLY good? I mean, you almost can't help but do 10 points of damage (especially with 3.5 power attack), and you'll be tripping everything in sight.

And then you want to remove the only risk built into a trip?

Seems a tad excessive to me.

PS

 

[Hypersmurf]

Knockdown has its own disadvantage in that if you fail to trip your opponent, he gets to counter trip you (just like in a normal trip).

Just to throw more confusion on the issue, Skip Williams declared in a Sage Advice chat that while Knockdown uses the Trip mechanic, it isn't a Trip.

He stated that if you deal more than 10 points of damage, you use the trip mechanic (Str vs Dex/Str opposed check), but that you do not need to make an initial touch attack, nor do you suffer a counter-trip if you fail.

Now, this is a case of the Sage making up rules again ("OI! WILLIAMS! NO!")... but in this case, I actually like the ruling

Partly because it fits with the "No Improved Trip" rule. If the trip attack from a Knockdown works exactly like a normal Trip (touch attack, countertrip), Improved Trip should allow an extra attack. Since (by the Sage's ruling) it doesn't, it's no longer counter-intuitive for Improved Trip to not work...

-Hyp.

 

[Dirigible]

Thanks for the link, Camarath.

And taa to the rest of you for the enlightening discussion. You've helped me put a rule-bending player back where he belongs : mortal dread !.

 

[flamepusle]

Yeha, that was my rule-wise interpreation too, Darklone.

What's silly about it?

He wields a halberd, has str 18.

That's d10+6 (+d4 if DF applies) dam per hit; that's 10.5 (or 13 ) damage on average. If he does 10+ damage, he gets a free trip attack (+4 form improved trip). If he trips the target, he gets a free follow up attack.

Silly? It's pure 100% munchkin, no additives.

so someone creating a character that is based on a specific form of combat is pure 100% munchkin, no additives? i created this character to do one thing, and thats trip and all the goodies that go with it. i dont plan on useing 2 weapons or making 47 attacks in a round, i was going to focus on taking feats that help my ability to trip and take out the opponents in that fashion. it was somthing that i never saw anyone do, 99 percent of the palers out their that use fighters take power attack cleave and any other feat that adds to damage or to hit with thisr greatsword or whatever generic weapon they use. i thought the halberd is a weapon you dont see used very often and thought it would be fun to play. but i guess if making a character you thought was unuiqe and creative is silly then what is making hte generic fighter that you see in every gaming group?

 

[flamepusle]

so then whats the point of taking improved trip if you dont get a bonus attack like it states?

 

[nimisgod]

Just to throw more confusion on the issue, Skip Williams declared in a Sage Advice chat that while Knockdown uses the Trip mechanic, it isn't a Trip.

He stated that if you deal more than 10 points of damage, you use the trip mechanic (Str vs Dex/Str opposed check), but that you do not need to make an initial touch attack, nor do you suffer a counter-trip if you fail.

Now, this is a case of the Sage making up rules again ("OI! WILLIAMS! NO!")... but in this case, I actually like the ruling

Partly because it fits with the "No Improved Trip" rule. If the trip attack from a Knockdown works exactly like a normal Trip (touch attack, countertrip), Improved Trip should allow an extra attack. Since (by the Sage's ruling) it doesn't, it's no longer counter-intuitive for Improved Trip to not work...

-Hyp.

Ah. Sou desu.

I don't remember reading that particular part of the Sage's advice. I always assumed that the Knockdown feat allowed you to choose an advantage, but with a caevat.

So I suppose its a brainless decision to take knockdown, especially if you are large (or enlarged) and have improved trip.

Well, I'll change my earlier statements.

Knockdown is now a decent feat to choose, with no disadvantages whatsoever.

 

[Hypersmurf]

so then whats the point of taking improved trip if you dont get a bonus attack like it states?

You do get a bonus attack like it states.

Any time you trip someone... except if it's a free Trip from the Knockdown feat.

-Hyp.

 

[flamepusle]

still doesnt make sense to me why it would work, but i guess rules are rules. ill jsut have to rethink my feat paths for htis character, maybee take some toughness instead of knockdown.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So I suppose its a brainless decision to take knockdown, especially if you are large (or enlarged) and have improved trip.

Well, it depends if you consider that Sage Advice that never made it into an Official FAQ to be binding or not...

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Doesn't that make Knockdown REALLY good? I mean, you almost can't help but do 10 points of damage (especially with 3.5 power attack), and you'll be tripping everything in sight.

Given that Knockdown is the third feat in a chain, shouldn't it be REALLY good?

Compare Knockdown (combat expertise/improved trip/KD) to Whirlwind Attack (dodge/mobility/WW). Right now, with a reach weapon, the WW attacker can get an absolutely HIDEOUS number of attacks when surrounded. At no risk.

Alternately, compare it to Spring Attack. Up, whack, and away -- and noAoO from your target for yoru movement. Pretty darned HANDY, if you ask ME.

Knockdown is at a similar position, and frankly, it's prerequisites are comparatively HARDER to qualify for for most archetypal fighters (the archetype being "big, not-so-bright BRICK with lotsa stength and hitpoints out the wazoo"); most of them won't have the requisite 13+ intelligence, and even then, will possibly consider the Expertise to be a waste -- or just takeit as a "gateway" to better things.

flamepulse wonders:
so then whats the point of taking improved trip if you dont get a bonus attack like it states?

Uuuuuh ... as a prerequisite for Knockdown?

flamepulse protests:
so someone creating a character that is based on a specific form of combat is pure 100% munchkin, no additives?

Well, I don't think so. I've got a Halfogre Exoticist (form the recent DMG), who wields a Duom, has Large and In Charge, and Knockdown. Two more levels of Exoticist, and I qualify for Weapon Master ... *grin* ...

i created this character to do one thing, and thats trip and all the goodies that go with it. i dont plan on useing 2 weapons or making 47 attacks in a round, i was going to focus on taking feats that help my ability to trip and take out the opponents in that fashion.

Whichis quite valid. Many actual martial arts focus on the concept of trying to put your enemy off-balance, or even knock them prone, before the "real" attacks begin.

it was somthing that i never saw anyone do, 99 percent of the [players] out their that use fighters take power attack cleave and any other feat that adds to damage or to hit with [thier] greatsword or whatever generic weapon they use.

Yep. That would be the archetypal "thud and blunder" fighter.

i thought the halberd is a weapon you dont see used very often and thought it would be fun to play.

I agree, which is why my halfogre picked the Duom, instead of the default spiked chain.

but i guess if making a character you thought was unuiqe and creative is silly then what is making hte generic fighter that you see in every gaming group?

[sarcasm] ... "good role-playing" ... ?[/sarcasm]

The only flaw I see, is your comment:

still doesnt make sense to me why it would work, but i guess rules are rules. ill jsut have to rethink my feat paths for htis character, maybee take some toughness instead of knockdown.

... in response to Hypersmurf pointing out the FAQ disallows a fre follow-up on the free trip form the heavy hit.

Seriously -- isn't it enough that they've been knocked on their arse (giving you a +4 for the NEXT attack in your full-attack routine), and have to spend an MEA to stand up (preventing them form full attacking you BACK) ... ?

Knockdown as-is is an okay feat, worth taking if it fits your style.

Knockdown as-is, and without counter-tripping, makes for an excellent goal within it's style. And it makes sense, since you're LITERALLY hitting them so hard, they get ... well ... knocked down.