Dirty Fighting an Knockdown

[wraith8]

Pax or GMPax of Exodus? Is it just me or do you have way too much time to do these posts. All of them are so F***** long!

Not that i care.







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Hall of Valhalla member
Verbboragic Player MPMO
Has too much time....

 

[Camarath]

I've got a Halfogre Exoticist (form the recent DMG), who wields a Duom, has Large and In Charge, and Knockdown. Two more levels of Exoticist, and I qualify for Weapon Master ... *grin* ...

Pax I like your character. The Large Duom's 20ft reach is very nice. I assume you have Combat Reflexes as well. I think that you can use Knock-Down and Whirlwind Attack together which should be very powerful and cool.

By brother is playing a Feral Half-Ogre in my campaign. I house ruled Giants to be Humanoid (Giant)s so of course he wanted to take Feral. His Intelligence is a three so he can't take the Knock-Down feat chain. He is the party's only melee character. He is an OA Samurai and uses a Large Heavy Fullblade (6d6). His usual tactic is just to charge up and hit as hard as he can. He is thinking about the new Awesome Blow feat from the 3.5 MM. IMO this feat is a good bit stronger than Knock-Down.

From SRD
AWESOME BLOW [GENERAL, FIGHTER]
Prerequisites: Str 25, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, size Large or larger.
Benefit: As a standard action, the creature may choose to subtract 4 from its melee attack roll and deliver an awesome blow. If the creature hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with an awesome blow, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the attacking creature’s choice and fall prone. The attacking creature can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the attacking creature than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle.

 

[Pax]

Pax I like your character. The Large Duom's 20ft reach is very nice. I assume you have Combat Reflexes as well. I think that you can use Knock-Down and Whirlwind Attack together which should be very powerful and cool.

Not yet, I don't. Combat Reflexes will be my Exoticist(8) feat, and Whirlwind will be my Character (9) feat (at ECL 9 and 10, respectively). Character (12) will give me Improved Critical (Duom), Character (15) is either Power Critical or Weapon Specialisation, and Character 18 is the other of those two.

At 10th level (ECL11), I can and will enter the WeaponMastr PrC. Eventual 17-20/x4 threat with the Duom and a use of Improved Multiplier for the day (we're using 3.5 rules btw). Since I'm doing 2d6+11 (not specialised yet), at ECL8,and lacking power attack just yet ... that's a lot of potential damage on a critical.

By brother is playing a Feral Half-Ogre in my campaign. I house ruled Giants to be Humanoid (Giant)s so of course he wanted to take Feral. His Intelligence is a three so he can't take the Knock-Down feat chain. He is the party's only melee character. He is an OA Samurai and uses a Large Heavy Fullblade (6d6). His usual tactic is just to charge up and hit as hard as he can. He is thinking about the new Awesome Blow feat from the 3.5 MM. IMO this feat is a good bit stronger than Knock-Down.

Um. A Feral Half-Ogre Intelligence Three SAMURAI ... ?!?!?

I'm very sorry, but that creates an impassible logical disconnect for me. One, no Feral creature should ever be allowed to take the Samurai class. Two, few if any samurai should ever fight with any weapon except a katana, or paired katana/wakizashi.

Regardless, it sounds to me like your brother would have been much better off taking levels of vanilla Fighter, or even barbarian, anyway -- since the Ancestral Daisho special ability only works with his inherited daisho -- that is, the katana and wakizashi he started with.

And yes, I know about the Rokugan d20 supplement "Way of the Samurai" and the "Soul Forge" feat found in it. Your brother would have still been better off, if you allowed that feat, to take fighter levels, and choose "Iron Will" (the other path to qualifying for Soul Forge) instead of the Samurai class; at least then, he'd also have the +2 Will Save bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

His Intelligence is a three so he can't take the Knock-Down feat chain.

Not quite true.

He can't take Expertise, but Expertise isn't a prerequisite for Knockdown; only Improved Trip is. And you can get Improved Trip with an Intelligence of 3 by taking 6 levels of Monk.

It's not efficient, but it's possible

-Hyp.

 

[Iscariot]

However, my intiution says it should be no; the extra damage comes from an opportunbe knee to the groin or elbow to the nose, and wouldn't help unbalance the critter in that way.

I don't know. I have foudn when I get knee-capped or elbowed in the groin that I am offbalance...and crying like a baby. hehehe

 

[Camarath]

I'm very sorry, but that creates an impassible logical disconnect for me. One, no Feral creature should ever be allowed to take the Samurai class. Two, few if any samurai should ever fight with any weapon except a katana, or paired katana/wakizashi.

He was not feral when he took the Samurai levels but for story based reasons (rage over of the slaughter of his clan by extra-planar assassins) "gained" it later which lowered his intelligence from 7 to 3. I have not let him advance as a Samurai since that point but have not made him an Ex-Samurai because he is still Lawful and is trying as he can to fulfill his liege lords last command.

The Samurai class does not strictly limit the Ancestral Daisho to the katana/wakizashi. And this weapon is his inherited daisho. A Large Fullblade does the same damage as and IMO is mechanically similar to a Huge Bastard Sword or Katana. Interestingly his sword was the sword of one of the ancient founders of his clan who was a Huge Ogre Mage.

I thought the character made sense in a bastard Samurai tries to up hold and avenge the Honor of his fallen clan wile holding his inner demons at bay kind of way. I don't know if that will sit any better with you but I thought it was a pretty good character background my self when he presented it to me. And as far as I know he is not looking at the Soul Forge feat.

 

[Pax]

He was not feral when he took the Samurai levels [...]

Feral is not an acquired template, it is inherited. And even so, he should've been hit with ex-samurai if he somehow did acquire it. There is no such thing as a feral samurai. Feral creatures are not civilised people; samurai are the epitomy of a civilised warrior. Animals, to be blunt, do not follow bushido. OTOH, Samurai live, sleep, and breathe bushido.

The Samurai class does not strictly limit the Ancestral Daisho to the katana/wakizashi. And this weapon is his inherited daisho.

Um. The word "daisho" MEANS "Katana and Wakizashi". Saying "daisho doesnt mean katana and wakizashi" is the same as saying "longsword doesn't mean longsword". Seriously.

Besides which, while I don't have an OA in front of me, I am 1,999% certain the ability does spoecify it works with the samurai's starting katana and starting wakizashi, and only those two blades.

And as far as I know he is not looking at the Soul Forge feat.

That shoudl have been a requirement for him to use the Ancestral Daisho ability with anything other than the katana/wakizashi he starts with.

 

[Camarath]

Besides which, while I don't have an OA in front of me, I am 1,999% certain the ability does spoecify it works with the samurai's starting katana and starting wakizashi, and only those two blades.

Quote from Ancestral Daisho
Note: In some campaigns, a samurai might begin play with a different ancestal weapon, such as a tulwar (scimitar) or a jian (longsword).

 

[Camarath]

That should have been a requirement for him to use the Ancestral Daisho ability with anything other than the katana/wakizashi he starts with.

This is the blade he started with. Would it help if I called it a huge Katana that he is using like a Large Fullblade?

Feral is not an acquired template, it is inherited.

I don’t know of any rule stating that templates and specifically the Feral template can not be acquired.

And even so, he should've been hit with ex-samurai if he somehow did acquire it. There is no such thing as a feral samurai. Feral creatures are not civilised people; samurai are the epitomy of a civilised warrior. Animals, to be blunt, do not follow bushido. OTOH, Samurai live, sleep, and breathe bushido.

So what is the minimum Intelligence for one to be a Samurai? Animal intelligence is 1 or 2. Intelligence 3 is enough to be able it express and understand verbal constructs. And since there are not hard and clear rules on what constitutes bushido other than the Code of Conduct, which the character has not violated, in the Samurai class description I don’t see why the character has to be an Ex-Samurai. Civilized does not equal Lawful uncivilized creatures can be Lawful. The template does not force him to be Chaotic.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don’t know of any rule stating that templates and specifically the Feral template can not be acquired.

There are rules in Savage Species for rituals to acquire templates that are normally inherited.

They cost money and XP, from memory.

-Hyp.