D&D 5E Disable Device and Thieves' Tools.

[Kobold Stew]

From the Christmas morning character-building session, some odd inconsistencies emerged concerning rogues and the disable device skill.

In brief: the rogue's proficiency with thieves’ tools is a needless complication that limits options and offers no benefit. It should go.

Now the long version:

First, the rules:
a. All rogues have proficiency with thieves’ tools (Classes, p. 19).
*b. All schemes except the Rake give proficiency with Disable Device (Classes, p. 21)
c. Guild Thief is the only background that provides Disable device (Backgrounds, p. 4).
d. Disable device makes no specific reference to the need for tools (Backgrounds, p. 8).
e. Characters proficient with thieves’ tools can use them to find and disarm traps to open locks (Equipment, p. 10). Thieves’ tools are needed to disarm traps (Classes p. 19; Equipment p. 10).
f. Characters proficient with thieves’ tools can pick a lock (Equipment, p. 9) – tools are not mentioned.
*g. When using thieves’ tools, a character proficient with thieves’ tools gets +2 on checks (Equipment, p. 11).
*h. Rogues proficient with disable device will add the higher of two rolls of their skill die (Classes, p. 20).

(Points marked with * are new to this test packet.)

From this emerges the following observations or inconsistencies:

1. Despite all the hyped modularity, the thieves’ tool requirement effectively restricts opening locks and disabling traps to rogues.

2. A non-rogue character that learns Disable device through the Guild Thief background, or through Superior skill training (Specialties, p. 10) will not be able to use it to disable devices or open locks, since she cannot gain proficiency in thieves’ tools.

3. As a result, the guild thief background (as written) will only be chosen by rogues unless disable device is swapped out for another skill).

4. A rake who is not a guild thief has a proficiency they cannot use.

5. Every use of disable device will regularly receive +2 and the higher of two skill rolls on the skill die.

Point 5 is in fact the biggest problem here: every use of a single skill is always modified in two ways. The requirement for proficiency with tools provides needless obstacles and obstructs several interesting builds.

There’s also a problem because the game has only one tool proficiency: it’s an unnecessary mechanic.

Suggested fixes:
* Remove the proficiency with thieves’ tools from rogues (a). Anyone with Disable device (not just rogues) uses them to disable traps or pick locks. This resolves the issues pertaining to the Rake (b), the Guild Thief (c), and Superior Skill training. It also means that one can conceive of a Disable device roll that does not necessarily benefit from a Rogue’s Skill mastery (h).

* Remove the bonus to the roll granted by tools (g). This needlessly inflates the DC of every lock, and allows what amounts to a trivial non-magical object to meaningfully impact a skill roll. If nothing else, it sets a bad precedent.

* Allow locks to be picked by anyone with Disable device, rather than anyone proficient with thieves’ tools (f).

Any thoughts, as always, appreciated. In a world with Hedge Magicians and Mystic Healers, is there a reason to limit full use of the Disable Device skill to Rogues?

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Looks like they didn't read what they wrote too closely. Hopefully they'll notice the problem and fix it. Your first one is what I'd do. Think I'd leave the +2 for using the tools though. Otherwise, what's the point of having them?

 

[the Jester]

I'd simply require the tools to disable some devices, including locks and those traps the dm determines require the tools.

Then add a skill trick that lets rogue trade their skill die for the ability to disable devices that normally requires tools without using the tools.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Looks like they didn't read what they wrote too closely. Hopefully they'll notice the problem and fix it. Your first one is what I'd do. Think I'd leave the +2 for using the tools though. Otherwise, what's the point of having them?

It's a reasonable question, but "the point" would be the same as material components for spells -- a (common sense) requirement, but with no mechanical benefit. With the bonus, it makes a trivial inflation of DCs on a skill, and sets the precedent that a few gp on a non-magical object grants +2 to a roll. I'd prefer not to have that established.

I'd simply require the tools to disable some devices, including locks and those traps the dm determines require the tools.

Then add a skill trick that lets rogue trade their skill die for the ability to disable devices that normally requires tools without using the tools.

This would be a reasonable way to make (certain) rogues "special" (or at least, distinct from those few non-rogue characters who will be trained in Disable device)

Thanks for the suggestions. Are there any other thoughts?

 

[Phoenix8008]

Yes to the combination of Kobold Stew's and The Jester's ideas. A good fix for a messy problem with the RAW currently.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Yes to the combination of Kobold Stew's and The Jester's ideas. A good fix for a messy problem with the RAW currently.

I agree.

Now let the wild speculation about what WotC will actually do begin!

 

[Kobold Stew]

I'm happy to note that this issue is resolved in the latest test packet (March 20-April 1). Two feats both grant proficiency with thieves' tools, in addition to automatic proficiency for rogues -- allows both proprietary ability for the class and the possibility to outsource it to other classes with feats.

 

[Li Shenron]

Resolved? Not yet :/

There is still this possibly redundant concept of thieves' tools proficiency.
The rules are now scattered in four places: skills, feats, classes and equipment.
The feats system is now required.

I think they could do a better job. Even just moving the proficiency from feats into skills would be an improvement already.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Agreed, it's not the cleanest fix --

but all of points 1-5 in the OP are no longer issues.