Disappointed in 3.5 books

Zarrock said:


Heh. I used to be "Zarrock, Primordial Evil" (if you ever visited my sites you'd know why I have this nick ;) ) on Eric's old boards. But when I had to transfer (during one of the board transitions), the nickname stayed "taken" even though I couldn't log in through it. So I thought: "What the heck, God of Evil will do. At least its honest...." :p

-Zarrock

I'm thinking of changing my nick to Iron_Chef, God of Evil Cuisine! :D
 
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arcady said:
As far as we know, there was zero playtesting involved in 3.5, after all, no playtesters were listed. Until WotC coughs up a list of them, that's a perfectly justified accusation to make.

Well, if the only evidence you could accept was a list of playtesters, then it would be a valid accusation to make. but given that I've seen pleanty of evidence from people who were involved, not to mention the designers talking about it, well I think I'll believe that there was playtesting.
 


Iron_Chef said:
I think it would have been better if the revision team could have provided a variant option for each class in the PHB, such as how to make an Inquisitor (with sense motive), an urban street fighter (with bluff, intimidate, gather information), etc. Not only would that make it easier to accomodate everyone's character vision, but it would make it easier on the DM to have balanced PC/NPC options to pick from, right there in the PHB. I know there's something about this in the DMG, but official variants in the PHB at the end of each class would be cool.

I'm sort of glad that they didn't, because I suspect that if it were done in the DMG, it would be seen as "officially official" and subject to a lot of people making overpowered characters because new DMs don't know when to stop them.

I'd LOVE to see it addressed in more detail in a separate book or PDF, though.

I still feel the sorcerer is a "wuss" and needs the added flavor

Yes.

and power

No.

that added charisma based class skills would give him. Flavor, because it shows he has a special heritage that commands respect, fear or awe, and Power, because he has reduced spellcasting progression and is a poor choice except as a one level multiclass for otherwise non-spellcasters.

Hm. That's based on your anecdotal evidence. Based on my anecdotal evidence, spontaneous spellcasters far outstrip their peers, since they don't have to memorize. The sorcerer and bard in my game chose good spells (and swapped out when levelling as well, which is now even a REAL rule!). They weren't just damage monkeys. They were flexible and powerful and darn fun.

It probably relates to campaign form. My games had enough craziness going on at any time that the spell-memorizers had trouble guessing what spells they'd need that day. If your campaigns are simple dungeon hacks, a specialized wizard can out-do a sorcerer, because there's less concern over which spells to memorize.

In other words: Make your campaigns more complex, and the sorcerer gets more powerful.

Yes, I min/max and power game, but everybody does to a certain extent. Why? Because you DIE if you don't, or suffer undue hardship because you are not maximized to handle unpleasant or dangerous situations...

S'not about minmaxing. It's about HOW you minmax. One guy builds a fighter with Finesse:Rapier, Focus:Rapier, Spec:Rapier, and ImpCrit:Rapier. Another guy takes Power Attack, Spring Attack, Precise Shot, and Two-Weapon Fighting:

The first guy is minmaxed for depth – while holding a rapier, he’s great. If he’s disarmed or sundered, he’s in trouble.

The second guy is minmaxed for breadth – he can shine a bit in any type of fight, but isn’t the best at any one combat style.

Both guys are minmaxed, but not in a bad way – and you can do the same for a sorcerer. If you think the sorcerer is weak, my guess would be that you’ve only seen him minmaxed one way.

D&D is only used for RP heavy stuff because it is known by the largest number of people and may be easier to implement in that regard. If D&D were more about RPing your character, then we'd get more than two pages on personality and background in the PHB, now wouldn't we?

I don’t think that it’s as much not a focus as it is an attempt to be broad. Some D&D groups pretty much do dungeon hacking. Others can go for an entire session talking and doing intrigue with no combat dice rolls whatsoever. Most do some kind of middle ground.

I agree with you that I’d like to see more of an emphasis on roleplaying tips in the PHB, but I don’t agree that D&D is not good for roleplaying as a result. Some folks are great at roleplaying, and will be great in any system. Other folks are lousy, and will be lousy in any system, including those that give bonuses for it. The only thing worse than a D&D player whose character has no family is a Vampire player who keeps trying to get awards for fulfilling his character role through the least amount of work possible.

Integrating roleplaying more strongly into the rules doesn’t make it better. It just makes it vulnerable to minmaxing, which effectively turns it into a parody of roleplaying.
 



Olive said:


Well, if the only evidence you could accept was a list of playtesters, then it would be a valid accusation to make. but given that I've seen pleanty of evidence from people who were involved, not to mention the designers talking about it, well I think I'll believe that there was playtesting.

I believe there was playtesting. I am concearned that there was not enough playtesting. When the WotC designers gave some background on thier changes it came out that the decision to "Agressively" change things was not made until after September of 2002. That leaves 9 months from major changes being started until it hits the shelves. Given that it would take a couple months to make the changes and a couple of months to edit, print and distribute, that leaves only 3-5 months for playtesting. Given the scope of the changes this seems inadaquate to me.
 

I needed new books anyway, so this is really not hurting me at all. The SRD is free online for anyone not wanting to buy. My only complaint is the compatibility guide. I would like it now, and I am not going to gencon. However, considering I have a laser printer I will just print it out... problem solved.

If they need more money and this is all they are doing (I have the books and I have read much of them) then my group won't be affected in a bad way. Much of what's changed is material we hadn't used. Quite honestly I don't think people need to buy new books if they don't want. Just make some notes in your books. I already have with some of the important errata.

Sincerely,

V
 

I'll go through a few points, although Im not sure anyone is still paying attention.

1. Art

Personally I've liked almost all of what I've seen from 3.5 I don't know any artists by name, but I did think the new elven chain looks awesome. Fact is, I like a lot of 3.0 art too. Had *all* the art been changed, I would have been miffed. After all, theres a lot of good art that I won't bother to keep around (I plan on giving my 3.0 books away to spread dnd, the true virus! :)) and I may miss some of the pictures. Had they changed *none* of the art then I would still be griping about a couple pictures that I don't particularly like. By changing a small amount of art and adding a small amount of new art, presumably they have made someone very happy. While that person may not be me, Im glad that this way there is a chance of pleasing some of the crowd (and in the process, not really displeasing too many other people).

Remember this is still 3rd edition. When I reminisce back about it and mention the picture of Lidda's face being blown off for failing a UMD roll, I hope anyone regardless of when they started to know what I mean. All new art would prevent that, and 1/2 or some other large percentage may hamper it. I think they went the best possible way they could with the art aspect. In the same way, I hope to see some Sword and Fist and other splat-book art in whatever books follow, some of it was good awesome art that shouldnt be lost forever in some splatbook (Blood Magus springs to mind).

2. Class Skills
There was actually a whole discussion about this, and the designers actually gave most of their reasoning/discussion behind the changes. Wow. I mean, has that EVER happened before? I'm sure it has, but its clearly a rare thing. Part of this 3.5 phenomenon was supposed to make it easier to backwards compatabilize it. So, theoretically a lot of sorcerors may have needed massive retuning if an entire subset of skills were added. Furthermore, the sorceror only gets *2+int* skills per level. Thats very little my friend, especially when you factor in the "base" skills most arcanists will take, regardless of particular style. Adding bluff was perhaps the best decision they could make. Bluff is extermely versatile and adds many synergy bonuses to other charisma based skills.

Additionally, I always saw sorcerors as "natural" diplomats, leaders, and intimidating people. In other words, their charisma modifier as it rose was their natural ability to do these things. And with their ability modifier they can frighten peasants and whatnot. Is a 6th level fighter going to be frightened of a guy in some weird leather outfit, with weird hair, and a shortspear going to be..."afraid"? Nah. Let sorcerors go ahead and pay cross-class points if they want to be good at intimidating or being diplomatic (the two "extremes" of the charisma interaction skills). I see no reason why some odd eldritch mage would be good at gathering information or performing, 2 other charisma skills you may not have thought of.

As for the cleric, well its a toss up. Personally I believe the "variants" you describe would be better served by having domains fill that niche. I think most domains should add 1 class skill to the cleric along with another small ability, or add a few class skills (like Trickery). FR really dropped the ball on this one (imo) because they kept using feats, which led to combat-based clerics even more. By restricting it to skill bonuses (and the occasional non-combat feat) you add flavor to the individual clerics without adding much power.

In fact, thats something I think the sorceror should get every 5 levels. Some kind of "inherent" bonus to a charisma skill of their choosing. Heck maybe have them gain 5 bonus ranks in a charisma skill or something. I think that is a better solution than just giving them flat-out class skills which they wont get an opportunity to utilize anyway.

3. Amount of Changes

There will undoubtedly be many many more arguements on this score, assuredly more than any other issue. Did 3.5 go too far? Did it not go far enough? I'm not sure, which to me tells me that they hit the mark they were aiming for, something in-between. Why is it not "just 4.0"? Jeezum. I should think that Wizards has learned the value of playtesters and will be employing many many groups before 4.0 comes out (which I think is at *least* 3 more years away). To say that 3.0 players should get nothing of an update inbetween the next edition seems silly to me. As people can point out, there have always been updates to the various editions, sometimes with more sweeping changes than even 3.5.

Ultimately you can't please everyone. If youre errata-filled, balance-tweaked 3.5 books don't please you for the price you paid then send them back. But please don't try and "blame" anyone for what you purchased. And not to be rude, but given some of your thoughts I doubt I would even consider buying "your 3.5" edition and I find the statement that you could do it better fairly demeaning to the design team.

Technik
 

Veander said:
I needed new books anyway, so this is really not hurting me at all. The SRD is free online for anyone not wanting to buy. My only complaint is the compatibility guide. I would like it now, and I am not going to gencon. However, considering I have a laser printer I will just print it out... problem solved.

If they need more money and this is all they are doing (I have the books and I have read much of them) then my group won't be affected in a bad way. Much of what's changed is material we hadn't used. Quite honestly I don't think people need to buy new books if they don't want. Just make some notes in your books. I already have with some of the important errata.

Sincerely,

V


If the Iron Chef is going to wait untill 2009 or 10 for 4.0 edition then thats fine by me, because as you all know they change it every decade of D&D, and then make revised editions just like the old Second edition did.
 

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