Disappointed in 3.5 books
- Thread starter Iron_Chef
- Start date
I agree on the Sense Motive being added to Clerics. My logic is simple. SM is not just getting to lies, it's also about knowing if you are getting the whole story. When you are talking to someone who is pouring out their life's problems, SM would allow you to see if they are sugarcoating their end of it. Not a lie, a deception. And why make it class? Because clerics only get INT+2 skill points. So if I run in a standard point buy game or in a set stat game, my INT is not my priority if I want to be effective. Not maxed, just effective. I need a good wisdom to be able to cast at all. It needs to be decently high if I want reasonable DC's. Oh hey, I want to turn undead as well....urgh, I need a decent charisma. Well, I'd prefer not to die, and Bear's Endurance is ridiculously short in duration now....so here comes Con. In most point buy, you're pretty much done by now.
That said, I also agree that it is /not/ fitting for /every/ cleric. (Confusing eh?) Honestly, I preferred the old speciality cleric, and while domains and granted powers come close, it's still just close. Make my cleric of Ilmater an excellent ear for his flock with Sense Motive. Give my cleric of Baghtru Intimidate as a class skill, let my cleric of Poseidon get Ride.
Clerics are by their very job description the single most varied class in outlook and mentality. How they view the world and it's people's is shaped by dogma, history and ideaology. Some classes may be more "enlighted" depending on your RL worldview, but these guys champion ideals and agendas. And darn few of them overlap.
As to Sorcs. Yes, they should get more CHA based skills, but honeslty I see only Diplomacy. It is the natural "counter" to bluff. Walk into a town that fears those with the blood of dragons? Bluff or bargain your way out in one piece. Yes, most of the stuff about their abilities is in the fluff, but honestly, if I read that my 3.0 elven ranger is among the best archers in the land and then see those Drizzt wannabe virtual feats, I'm gonna wonder who was smoking what that day. They fixed the Ranger to comply more to it's own fluff, so why not the other classes? The fluff is the absolute /core/ of a character. It is the base from which springs personality, life, quips, exchanges, outlook and mentality. You might play a PC that is completely against type, but guess what, it was knowing what the type was n the first place that allowed you to do that. Don't tell me I'm a natural diplomat and then expect me to spend my 2 skill points a level to make that a reality.
That said, I also agree that it is /not/ fitting for /every/ cleric. (Confusing eh?) Honestly, I preferred the old speciality cleric, and while domains and granted powers come close, it's still just close. Make my cleric of Ilmater an excellent ear for his flock with Sense Motive. Give my cleric of Baghtru Intimidate as a class skill, let my cleric of Poseidon get Ride.
Clerics are by their very job description the single most varied class in outlook and mentality. How they view the world and it's people's is shaped by dogma, history and ideaology. Some classes may be more "enlighted" depending on your RL worldview, but these guys champion ideals and agendas. And darn few of them overlap.
As to Sorcs. Yes, they should get more CHA based skills, but honeslty I see only Diplomacy. It is the natural "counter" to bluff. Walk into a town that fears those with the blood of dragons? Bluff or bargain your way out in one piece. Yes, most of the stuff about their abilities is in the fluff, but honestly, if I read that my 3.0 elven ranger is among the best archers in the land and then see those Drizzt wannabe virtual feats, I'm gonna wonder who was smoking what that day. They fixed the Ranger to comply more to it's own fluff, so why not the other classes? The fluff is the absolute /core/ of a character. It is the base from which springs personality, life, quips, exchanges, outlook and mentality. You might play a PC that is completely against type, but guess what, it was knowing what the type was n the first place that allowed you to do that. Don't tell me I'm a natural diplomat and then expect me to spend my 2 skill points a level to make that a reality.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Iron_Chef said:
Who's Dragoth the Destroyer?
He's a poster from some time back, who often posted rants very much along the lines of yours. He also continuously baited the mods and flamed various publishers - especially Erik Mona, as I recall. He was eventually banned from the boards. He was often funny, and occasionally posted some very insightful and useful threads, but he was always testing the boundaries of the boards, and offended many people. I liked the guy, but he just didn't know when to quit.
A quick last thought about stats and character gravitation.
If a person is born with a natural affinity towards math say that they have a high INT (assuming INT is the right stat for math). I think that they are not going to have a harder time learning it than someone who goes into a math degree. Making them spend double the time learning that skill just doesn't make sense. And that is with my 19 Sense Motive
I'm all for letting characters explain what their characters spent time on and learned. (Read I let players change class for cross-class skills(not class only) on a one for one basis with character background)
Good Thread all!
If a person is born with a natural affinity towards math say that they have a high INT (assuming INT is the right stat for math). I think that they are not going to have a harder time learning it than someone who goes into a math degree. Making them spend double the time learning that skill just doesn't make sense. And that is with my 19 Sense Motive
I'm all for letting characters explain what their characters spent time on and learned. (Read I let players change class for cross-class skills(not class only) on a one for one basis with character background)Good Thread all!
Chris_Nightwing
First Post
I don't think I agree with that at all. I just got a Class I in my first year of an Engineering degree. It is a maths-intensive course. I think those that take it would agree with me that we would have a much harder time taking a Maths degree. I *know* the same applies for mathmos taking anything practical hehe... they can barely use a toaster.
Anyway there is always a handy feat that lets you take a class skill to add to your collection. Use that, it is pretty fair if your sorceror really needs to be an ace diplomat or the cleric is despairing that his high Wisdom just isn't good enough for judging the local home produce fayre.
PS: Oh and I am at Cambridge, so this is is a proper engineering degree.
Anyway there is always a handy feat that lets you take a class skill to add to your collection. Use that, it is pretty fair if your sorceror really needs to be an ace diplomat or the cleric is despairing that his high Wisdom just isn't good enough for judging the local home produce fayre.
PS: Oh and I am at Cambridge, so this is is a proper engineering degree.
Chris_Nightwing said:
This is hard to read and I don't even know if it follows the example. Most engineering degrees involve a certain amount of math classes. I would say a better example would be an Art major that is very analytical thinker. Do you think that they are going to take twice as much time to learn the same material as a math major that maybe isn't as analytical in nature? (Read in game rules the character with class A that doesn't get skill A as a class skill but has a higher stat to which the skill is based off than another character that has it as a class skill but has a lower stat)
I'm sorry but I don't see a default cookie cutter view of a profession being the only factor in a characters skill generation. This is WoTC view of the stereotype fighter and these are the skills that you get. I never liked that. It works great for people that are just starting or that don't want to worry about that level of detail.
They give you two in the book and I think that there should be three. The two presented are:
Basic Package - Here are your skills points placed.
Normal package - Here are your skill point and the way that you can spend them.
I think they need to have the third package.
Open Package - Your character has x amount of time to spend on skills and time to develop Y skills.
For the fighter: Pick 6 class skills(Y skills) from any of the non-class specific skills; these are your class skills. You get x starting skills to spend as you wish on these or other cross-class skills.
The fighter just doesn't have the time to work on skills. Thus the low number of skill points gained per level.
Wow that is enough for me ... it is time to go to the lab
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Iron_Chef
First Post
MONSTER MANUAL 3.5 IS GREAT!
MATH=BORING.
Anyway, I just got my new 3.5 MMs and they kick ass. I will happily endorse the sweeping changes and new art in this book. The book looks great, they beefed up the outsiders, improved the organization, made them more useful for Savage Species/Cohort/PC use, and just really did an outstanding job. I wish the 3.5 PHB and DMG had seen this level of polish applied.
If you only buy one 3.5 book, the MM is the one to get.
MATH=BORING.
Anyway, I just got my new 3.5 MMs and they kick ass. I will happily endorse the sweeping changes and new art in this book. The book looks great, they beefed up the outsiders, improved the organization, made them more useful for Savage Species/Cohort/PC use, and just really did an outstanding job. I wish the 3.5 PHB and DMG had seen this level of polish applied.
If you only buy one 3.5 book, the MM is the one to get.
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MeepoTheMighty
First Post
[hijack] You know, I've never seen a single episode of that show where the Iron Chef lost. What's up with that?
And I definitely think that Eric took Skill Focus: Diplomacy as his bonus feat.
[/hijack]
And I definitely think that Eric took Skill Focus: Diplomacy as his bonus feat.
[/hijack]
