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Disappointed in 4e

dm4hire

Explorer
This is why RPG's and large publicly traded companies are a poor mix.
Do you honestly think that a non-gamer shareholder of Hasbro cares if the spirit of the original D&D is maintained when doing otherwise would drive up the stock price?

Its not evil. Its just business.

I agree with this part whole-heartedly. I've told friends we should unite everyone like the Harley-Davidson owners did when Japan bought the company and pool our resources and buy D&D away from Hasbro. We wouldn't see mistakes being made or at least radical changes for the simple purpose of trying to increase the profit margin of the game. The original OGL was in part designed I've always believed with the intention of making sure that D&D wouldn't die at the hands of a conglomerate giant whether it be Hasbro or not. It was our luck and good fortune it made it through the legal channels the way it did. We've already seen how those same legal channels have tightened the reigns going into 4e.

I'm really waiting to see if WotC opens up the GSL on its next revision so that hopefully a third party company can fix some of the downsides we've discussed here.
 

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Nebulous

Legend
I'll have to agree with the OP's dislike of magic. The more i see our magic users cast the same spells round after round, the more i miss the wonkyness of past editions.

After several months of running 4e i have to say that it is an EXCELLENT miniatures combat game with some roleplaying tacked on. What it is designed to do it does well, but it is not my favorite version of D&D.

At this point, i don't think any number of future supplements could possibly make me like it more. It is what it is and would require massive retooling to change it into the ideal game i would want to play. I do like it though, the parts that work well.
 
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RefinedBean

First Post
The Bad in this case was not bad overall for the game just bad in hindsight for profitability.

As far as an RPG goes, yes 3E was about as good as one could expect, sales wise. The question becomes, good enough for whom?

A small independent company in the RPG business can be satisfied with the kind of profit that would make a large company like Hasbro see it as something barely worth thier time.

Shareholders don't get excited about a product that simply makes a bit of money, they get excited about products with huge profits that help drive up the stock price.

The company has a duty to shareholders to invest in those products that produce the revenue and abandon or change those that don't.

This is why RPG's and large publicly traded companies are a poor mix.
Do you honestly think that a non-gamer shareholder of Hasbro cares if the spirit of the original D&D is maintained when doing otherwise would drive up the stock price?

Its not evil. Its just business.

I don't mean this to sound snarky EW, but I think you drastically overestimate how much Hasbro cares or even KNOWS about D&D. The D&D brand has never been mentioned in any of the quarterly reports I've seen (admittedly few), and what with Hasbro holding the licenses to some insanely profitable ventures, it just seems like they have bigger fish to fry.

If anything, WotC benefits from having a deep-pocketed, hands-off parent company. They get access to resources they desperately need to stay on top of the gaming medium while given creative liberty with everything they produce.

If Hasbro really wanted D&D to maximize the utility of its brand name, 4E would be about collecting Halflings and Kobolds in little balls, throwing them out into a grassy field, and watching them fight to the death.

Which...which sounds AWESOME, now that I think about it.
 

I don't mean this to sound snarky EW, but I think you drastically overestimate how much Hasbro cares or even KNOWS about D&D. The D&D brand has never been mentioned in any of the quarterly reports I've seen (admittedly few), and what with Hasbro holding the licenses to some insanely profitable ventures, it just seems like they have bigger fish to fry.

Thats kind of the point. As long as the numbers don't take a nose dive they could care less what WOTC does with it, or maybe the plan is to grow it into a bigger fish.
 

RefinedBean

First Post
Thats kind of the point. As long as the numbers don't take a nose dive they could care less what WOTC does with it, or maybe the plan is to grow it into a bigger fish.

Ohhh! Okay. So WotC's design decisions for 4E were to both maximize profit AND allow them enough creative license to maintain D&D's brand integrity.

I'm completely with you on that. If Hasbro ever DID decide to nose in on WotC's business, it'd probably be bad news for us all (although it'd be interesting, to say the least).

Still, there's plenty of ways to maintain brand integrity. 4E could still have gone any number of ways, as people have been saying.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The Bad in this case was not bad overall for the game just bad in hindsight for profitability.

Except 3e was very profitable. And there's no guarantee that 4e's PHBII will be any more profitable.

As far as an RPG goes, yes 3E was about as good as one could expect, sales wise. The question becomes, good enough for whom?

A small independent company in the RPG business can be satisfied with the kind of profit that would make a large company like Hasbro see it as something barely worth thier time.

3e made money for Hasbro. D&D has never been one of even WotC's biggest cash cows (Magic, Pokemon, etc.). It hits such a small market segmentthat anything that actually *does* up the profit is still a drop in the bucket, barely noticeable.

Shareholders don't get excited about a product that simply makes a bit of money, they get excited about products with huge profits that help drive up the stock price.

The company has a duty to shareholders to invest in those products that produce the revenue and abandon or change those that don't.

Hasbro shareholders don't get excited about D&D, period. They might've gotten a little excited when they heard that Hasrbo acquired the company who makes those little packs of cards you see in gas stations. Now, they're more concerned with who's making the toys for next Christmas's big blockbuster movies, and this Fall's big children's shows.

Hasbro has much bigger fish to fry.

This is why RPG's and large publicly traded companies are a poor mix.
Do you honestly think that a non-gamer shareholder of Hasbro cares if the spirit of the original D&D is maintained when doing otherwise would drive up the stock price?

Its not evil. Its just business.

No, but they also aren't going to mess with what works very much, if it's not a big deal. Companies are very conservative, in general, and as long as D&D makes money and isn't a liability, the suits have no reason to get very deeply involved. It's not like D&D matters to them, except as a small part of WotC, which is itself a small part of Hasbro.

This scheme to parse out the core is an effort to keep the edition robust over a long period of time. It seems to be less about shareholders and more about making sure 5e takes a while to get here.

What do I mean?

I believe one of the reasons 3.5 and 4e came down the pipes was the lagging sales of supplements in general. I believe that WotC rather correctly analyzed the problem on at least one front: after a few years of buying everything the edition has to offer, people just don't need that much more gaming material.

If they keep future releases "essential," (core, or with things that collectors will need), people will still have a perceived need for them and will still buy them. This will delay the need for a 5e, because sales won't lag as badly very soon -- the collectors will be buying things left and right.

However, there's a solid chance that they overlooked that people who very much appreciated the inclusiveness in 3e might not wait until their game is "complete." The collector's mindset is very binary: all or nothing. If they can't get it all, they don't bother collecting any of it, because partial mastery is unacceptable. This, combined with general consumer impatience and the existence of things like Pathfinder, mean that the "hardcore collector" D&D players that they are relying on to buy the PH#10 may have already bowed out, leaving people who aren't going to care about the PH#10 for the same reason that less people cared about Dragon Magic than cared about Sword and Fist.

This is a gambit. It is not assured to bring them the greater sales and longer edition life that they are gunning for here. They can take this risk because D&D isn't a big deal to Hasbro, and because of crack market research that has been right before.

You can't assume the inclusive model is less profitable than the parsing model at this point. That's just what WotC is banking on. Let me know in eight years of the PHB8 is selling more copies than Dragon Magic did. THEN you can perhaps claim that parsing out the core was a good idea from a standpoint of edition sustainability. But I bet you still won't be able to make the case that it was somehow good for investors, because D&D isn't big enough to be especially good or bad for investors.

Really, at the moment, with the looming global financial collapse still so fresh in the minds of investors, Hasbro would be happy to secure the rights to High School Musical 3 action figures so they're not seen as a risky investment or something, I'm sure. D&D doesn't enter into it at that level.
 

mmadsen

First Post
If they only charged you for your favorite channel, they'd have to charge you much, much more for it. It's not like its costs a lot less money to only provide you one channel to your taste.
You are absolutely right and why I hate using analogies. I was using that analogy to illustrate my issue with bundling stuff that I want with a whole mess that I don't.
Jasperak, I think the analogy you used was a good analogy -- TV programming and RPGs are similar in some important ways -- but the proper conclusion is the opposite of the one you expected.

It takes WotC just as much effort (i.e. money) to develop a bard class or frost giant monster manual entry for one gamer or one million gamers. (Yes, printing those pages isn't free, but printing costs aren't WotC's primary costs.)

But we gamers each value the different classes, monsters, spells, etc. wildly differently. If they sold the bard entry only to people who wanted to play a bard, they'd have to sell it for a shockingly high price.

By bundling different classes, monsters, spells, etc. together -- ones that any one gamer might love or hate -- they can charge one fairly low price.

Cutting out eladrin and dragonborn wouldn't reduce the cost of a Players Handbook meaningfully, but putting them in might make a few more sales or increase the price some customers are willing to pay.
My point is that it would cost WOTC nothing to split their sales strategy by tiers instead of how they are doing it now. For those people that don't care, they will buy all six or nine of the core rulebooks anyway. I on the other hand, instead of buying the three or six that I want, buy none.
I wouldn't extrapolate WotC's best strategy from my own personal tastes, and I wouldn't recommend that you do so either. Different gamers have very different tastes, and WotC's job is not to cater to any particular gamers, but to the vast majority of gamers.

Did they do that well this time? I'm not sure. Does leaving the Frost Giant out of the first Monster Manual cost them more sales of MMI than they'll gain in sales of MMII? Again, I'm not sure.

I agree that it seems odd though, not to include such a "core" monster in MMI.
 

garyh

First Post
One more thought about the "tiered books" idea...

Even if people don't reach Epic in the first year or two, people LIKE to be able to look and see what their character will be able to do when they reach the top, to plan accordingly, to have a goal. Sure, level 10 sorta does that, but not the same as level 30.
 

The Thayan Menace

First Post
Not-So Magic User(s)

I'll have to agree with the OP's dislike of magic. The more i see our magic users cast the same spells round after round, the more i miss the wonkyness of past editions.
Agreed; wizard versatility has certainly taken a hit in 4E.

IMO, someone should create an arcane version of Repetitive Stress Disorder.

-Samir
 


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