Disappointed in 4e

[Lonely Tylenol]

OK, granted that I was being a smidgeon glib, but please tell me for the record how long Rob must rest to remove those last traces of a deadly injury, assuming no recourse to magical healing?

Next morning, right as rain?

RC

Speaking as someone who has played every edition, and who still has a soft spot for long-term injury recovery, I don't see anything wrong with just saying that Rob's previously punctured chest cavity has been slapped together with mud, twine, and Dutch courage, making him functional again. The wound won't slow him down for the next few hours, and he'll heal it up off-camera between adventures.

These days, I just can't stand anymore to do something like have a calendar on my table and track how long it takes for someone's ribs to stop being cracked. I'll put up with some hand-waving so that we can get back to saving the world, romancing the NPCs, and generally being heroes. I didn't sign up to play this game so that I could spend all my time doing clerical work.

 

[Lacyon]

I didn't sign up to play this game so that I could spend all my time doing clerical work.

Ouch!

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I am absolutely against the DM telling the players what their characters do. Therefore, the game system must provide reasonable incentive for rest.



Assume a 3rd level character with an average Con and 20 hit points. A blow knocks you to 0 hit points.

In order to regain your full health, without magic, how long must you rest

A) in 1e?

B) in 2e?

C) in 3e? 3 hp per day, 6 hp per day with bed rest, 12 hp per day with bed rest and extended care by a healer. A minimum of 2 days, an average of 4 days, and a maximum of 7 days.

D) in 4e?

Do you notice any dramatic changes in these numbers?


RC


EDIT: Hypertext SRD: What Hit Points Represent

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

Any number longer than 2 or 3 days or so would imply to me that you suffered a sever wound and if so, in the absence of magical healing, there should be a chance of infection in the wound with greater changes depending on location and if that hit point loss was due to fire based attacks, frankly you should die.

That very problem, drove me away from D&D many years ago and I searched for 'realisitc' combat. Ultimately I realiased that realism is too dangerous and spoils the story. The PC's need some plot protection to get anywhere and treating hit points as something abstract let me have a more fun game. I see your point, but I would like to know do you see mine?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Who decides "they return to thier home town for a month or so to recuperate from thier adventures"? Why do they not just plunder the next tomb?

Who decides how easy it is to find the "next tomb?" Who decides how often trouble comes to Sunnydale? The players? Not in the games I've been in. That's up to the DM. And if there is no easily locatable "next tomb" or yet another earth-shaking event of the week, then the characters don't have much meaningful choice other than taking some down-time.

 

[Lacyon]

Who decides how easy it is to find the "next tomb?" Who decides how often trouble comes to Sunnydale? The players? Not in the games I've been in. That's up to the DM. And if there is no easily locatable "next tomb" or yet another earth-shaking event of the week, then the characters don't have much meaningful choice other than taking some down-time.

In most cases, I agree with you.

However, in this particular point, RC is referencing sandbox-style play, quite possibly making an unverbalized connection to the ongoing Megadungeon Sandbox thread where I have seen him poke his head.

Once you've been to the Megadungeon, you don't ordinarily need to wait for the DM to tell you you're allowed to go back. You just go back into the entrance and make your way where you want to go.

So within that context, I think he's right that it's important (or at least useful) to have periodic, rules-encouraged downtime (even if it's not strictly rules-enforced). Even if it's just a rule the DM made up himself.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Yeah it makes more sense when words are used consistently.

Bloodied but there is no blood or bleeding.

Were the rules edited for content and to run in the time allotted and to fit this screen?

RP Games need Game Terms. They always been there, but sometimes the game term blurred with the general definition of the word. Starting with 3E the designers tried to codify Game Terms. Since then I don't assume a Game Term equals the general definition. This is what I meant earlier about people taking things too literally. Bloodied is a good example of a Game Term that does not always mean the same thing as the general definition of bloodied. This opens up that other Game Terms might not mean what the general definition means.

Re: Unconscious (the Game Term):

"My fighter stands up, dances a jig and [rolls death save - fails] collaspes back to the ground." - This certainly doesn't follow RAW. Standing is a Move Action. Does it grossly violate the Unconscious condition? Not grossly. But it seems only appropriate to a humor-themed campaign.

"My fighter, in his haze of blood claws at the walls trying to fight of the pull of death [rolls death save - fails] but collapses in a heap." - Follows RAW? Sure, he didn't *actually* stand up. He took no actions, only rolled his death save. This scene seems appropriate to me for an action adventure campaign.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

However, in this particular point, RC is referencing sandbox-style play, quite possibly making an unverbalized connection to the ongoing Megadungeon

Well, if you're going to overlook the unrealistic nature of most Megadungeons, why start worrying about the realism of hit points.

I like Megadungeons. The last 3.5 campaign we were playing was World's Largest Dungeon. The amount of time the party was forced to huddle in a room hiding from wandering monsters and taking cover from frequent earthquakes got rediculous. If I wanted more realism, they should have died due to a lack of fresh water while they were waiting days to heal their wounds.

I look forward to completing WLD in 4E some day. I think the ease of the party's recovery will make the campaign more fun for us.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Cool, so you've sucessfully convinced me that you dislike how quickly people heal in 4e?

There's no problem with how the system works, you just dislike how fast it does it.

Please note, explainations of why I feel 4e seems like Monty Python are just that: explainations of why I feel that way.

My entry to this discussion is based solely on the contention that hit points in 4e represent something different than they do in the Gygaxian paradigm.

IMHO, they are not the same. Which is better for you is up to you.

Isn't all this creative energy you've been spending trying to convince everyone the system is broken (without even using it) better spent creating new ideas and new fun things?

I've used it, albeit not extensively.

OTOH, check out RCFG in the "RPG Design" portion of my website for "creating new ideas and new fun things". Then you can point out the absurd results my rules lead to!


RC

 

[Andor]

Speaking as someone who has played every edition, and who still has a soft spot for long-term injury recovery, I don't see anything wrong with just saying that Rob's previously punctured chest cavity has been slapped together with mud, twine, and Dutch courage, making him functional again. The wound won't slow him down for the next few hours, and he'll heal it up off-camera between adventures.

These days, I just can't stand anymore to do something like have a calendar on my table and track how long it takes for someone's ribs to stop being cracked.

I used to play with some guys who had a homebrewed system. They tracked age, and did a lot with it. Frex if two charaters were travelling overland and one had a horse and one didn't, they would get there at the same time, but the one without the horse would age twice as much. Similarly if you rested after a fight everyone would be healed at the same time. But the guy with the sucking chest wound would age the 9 months that would probably take to heal.

I was ... not a huge fan of this 'feature' of the system.

 

[Scribble]

Please note, explainations of why I feel 4e seems like Monty Python are just that: explainations of why I feel that way.

My entry to this discussion is based solely on the contention that hit points in 4e represent something different than they do in the Gygaxian paradigm.

IMHO, they are not the same. Which is better for you is up to you.

It's an extension of the conceptbased on something that was already there.

The rules have always maintained that HPs are not a direct representation of physical injury. 4e simply expands on this idea by adding ways to heal other then magic. It also speeds up the full healing process.

No paradigm change, just an added rule that you aparently dislike.

The game still abstracts both, and in a way that does not involve "retconning" or "shroedingers HPs" as you've indicated before.

You take damage, you heal that damage. No need to say it retcons or anything similar because you're still injured. You've lost a healing surge. you're just pushing on through that injury and back on your feet for a bit.

Yep, after an extended rest you're back up to full power. It fits nicely with the movie style injury, where even when they're bad, they heal astonishingly quickly.

I can see that if you want long heal times (by default) then it might not be to your tastes, but I'd be willing to guess WoTCs research showed most people don't, so they sped it up. They could have easily made full recovery longer and still used the exact same HP system.

the system, hwoever, does not lead to absurd narration instances, unless you ignore elements of the system in order to force it to.

Thats true of all editions.

OTOH, check out RCFG in the "RPG Design" portion of my website for "creating new ideas and new fun things". Then you can point out the absurd results my rules lead to!

You can make any rule lead to absurdity if you start out with the intention of doing so. Imagination is funny like that.