Disappointed in 4e

[Fifth Element]

(1) If "trying to get up" is colour if it doesn't impact resolution, so is dancing a jig and winking at the elf.

No, it isn't. "Trying to get up and dance a jig" would be equivalent, but you would fail at that by the rules, just as you would fail at just getting up. So it's colour, just like trying to get up.

(2) If dancing a jig and winking at the elf doesn't impact resolution, but is still a rules violation, because the character is attempting an action -- whether it succeeds or not, whether it impacts resolution or not -- then so is trying to get up.

The equivalent of "dancing a jig" is not "trying to get up" in the way we're using the phrase here. The equivalent of "dancing a jig" is "getting up". Which the rules do not allow.

 

[Fifth Element]

Since I've addressed this specifically during this discussion, in this thread or the other, I'll not do so again.

You haven't addressed my specific question as far as I can tell.

Why isn't this a valid perspective: "Why does it take my burly 10th-level fighter a full week to return to full fighting potential, when he only took a scratch in battle?"

 

[Raven Crowking]

You haven't addressed my specific question as far as I can tell.

Tell you what, if I go back through this thread and the other and cut & paste three answers to your question (not necessarily to the specific wording -- no "sorry, I said burly fighter, and you're response didn't designate burly") what value is there in it for me?

I have been there & done that more than once.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

No, it isn't. "Trying to get up and dance a jig" would be equivalent, but you would fail at that by the rules, just as you would fail at just getting up. So it's colour, just like trying to get up.

Does it impact resolution? LostSoul's criteria are very specific.

Does it impact resolution?

If Yes, then it is not colour.

If No, then it is colour.


RC

 

[Fifth Element]

Does it impact resolution? LostSoul's criteria are very specific.

Okay, how does it impact resolution?

 

[LostSoul]

You're conflating two arguments.

(1) If "trying to get up" is colour if it doesn't impact resolution, so is dancing a jig and winking at the elf.

(2) If dancing a jig and winking at the elf doesn't impact resolution, but is still a rules violation, because the character is attempting an action -- whether it succeeds or not, whether it impacts resolution or not -- then so is trying to get up.

What I am saying is "One way or the other. You can't have it both ways."

(Which, AFAICT, you've agreed with, although you think the jig-winking is silly.)

You're reading "I try to get up" as Intent when it's not part of the resolution. It's just adding some description to the situation, i.e. Colour.

Initiation in this situation is "It's my turn this round," Intent is "I don't want to die," Execution is "I'm making the Death Save", and the Effect is whatever the die comes up on the Death Save (failure).

Anyways. Jig-winking is not colour because it impacts resolution.

edit: Your turn would look like this:
Initiation: My init comes up.
Intent: I want to get up, dance a jig, and wink at the elf.
Execution: You can't take actions while Unconcious.
Effect: You fail your Death Save.

"Trying to get up", if that was your Intent, would look the same way.

But it's not, it's just colour.

 

[Fifth Element]

Tell you what, if I go back through this thread and the other and cut & paste three answers to your question (not necessarily to the specific wording -- no "sorry, I said burly fighter, and you're response didn't designate burly") what value is there in it for me?

I think you're misreading me. I'm not asking "how do you make sense of this in 1E?" You can easily make sense of it by looking at it a certain way.

What I'm asking is, why is looking at it another particular way not valid? The perspective addressed in my question seems like a perfectly valid way of looking at things to me.

As I have said, my ultimate point is that you are choosing to look at 4E in a way that results in a large number of absurdities, while choosing to look at 1E in a way that results in a small number.

 

[pemerton]

There are certainly players who, faced with rules that continually bring up contents that they have to fight to make non-absurd, will make them ever-more-blatantly-absurd as a means of dealing with their disappointment in the game system.

I have, IOW, played with hundreds of players who don't want a game that makes smart play run counter to fun play.

<snip>

As a player, I've had the same experience. I enjoy meaningful decisions. The more meaningful, the better.

So what your saying is that if players want to prioritise what you call "smart play" (a certain sort of Gygaxian/Pulsepherian gamism) over narratively-oriented play of the sort that the 4e-types on this thread are articulating - to the extent that they will push the game into absurdity to make their prioritis clear - then 4e is not the best game system. That is not news. We worked it out in a 30-page thread before 4e was actually released.

 

[Raven Crowking]

What I'm asking is, why is looking at it another particular way not valid? The perspective addressed in my question seems like a perfectly valid way of looking at things to me.

That's already answered, too.

So what your saying is that if players want to prioritise what you call "smart play" (a certain sort of Gygaxian/Pulsepherian gamism) over narratively-oriented play of the sort that the 4e-types on this thread are articulating - to the extent that they will push the game into absurdity to make their prioritis clear - then 4e is not the best game system.

No, what I am saying is that the hit point paradigm changed.

In further discussion of what the various hit point paradigms are, it did indeed come up that 4e isn't well suited for some types of play. BUT....I am saying that all games have "smart play" element built into them, whether intended or not. A well designed game harmonizes the "smart play" elements with the "intended play" elements, so that when you are doing the smart thing you are also doing the intended thing, and vice versa.

I am also saying that continued day to day activity while never taking any damage that prevents (or strongly counterindicates) continued day to day actiity, was intentionally written into the 4e system's "smart play" because the good folks at WotC thought, although the result might quickly become absurd, it was "more fun".

IOW, I am suggesting that, if good design harmonizes smart and intended play, and if 4e is good design, then the absurd features are intentional. Not intentional because they are absurd, but intentional because the designers thought them more fun despite being absurd (or simply didn't stop to consider the absurd rammifications of the rules they were writing).

There is nothing "invalid" in playing that way, if you enjoy it. There is nothing "invalid" in not playing that way while using that ruleset.

But, for me at least, there is as much work involved -- every combat -- in making the 4e rules "make sense" within the context of the game world as some of you have expended trying to make the 1e hp rules not make sense.

I don't mind having to work to make things not make sense. I simply don't do that work. I do mind having to work, continually, every combat, for the rules to make sense within the game world. That is, simply put, not fun.



RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

You're reading "I try to get up" as Intent when it's not part of the resolution. It's just adding some description to the situation, i.e. Colour.

Mega honking double standard.

Getting up, dancing a jig, falling into the same spot, and winking at the elf is not part of the resolution. No dice are rolled. It impacts nothing. It has no game effect. It's just adding some descripton to the situation, i.e., Colour.

Initiation in this situation is "It's my turn this round," Intent is "I don't want to die," Execution is "I'm making the Death Save", and the Effect is whatever the die comes up on the Death Save (failure).

How does jig-winking impact resolution?

Or is Colour defined by you as simply Colour you like the flavour of?


RC