Disarm a Shield?

[RuminDange]

Just had a thought while discuss a few things with one of my players and after checking the rules I'm not sure if it can be done.
So can a shield user be disarmed of his shield and if so where does it fit under the disarm rules and what are the modifiers for the various shields?

Thanks,
RD

 

[Infiniti2000]

You can't grab an item that's well secured. After reading the descriptions on the shields, I'd say they are well secured (if readied). I'd allow you to disarm a loosed shield, however. I'd treat a tower shield as two-handed, a heavy shield as one-handed, and others as light.

 

[RuminDange]

You can't grab an item that's well secured. After reading the descriptions on the shields, I'd say they are well secured (if readied). I'd allow you to disarm a loosed shield, however. I'd treat a tower shield as two-handed, a heavy shield as one-handed, and others as light.

So someone couldn't grab onto the shield during a grapple attempt and wrestle it away?
What about someone striking a shield user with a disarm attempt using a weapon?

I definitely agree if the shield is loose it could be disarm or taken away, but it is those two questions that came up I don't have or didn't see a clear answer too. :\

Thanks,

RD

 

[Taren Seeker]

Well, I've done it in play. I suppose you could cut the straps securing the shield, or just rip it off by main force. The DM treated it as if the shield was being used as a weapon using the shield bash rules. Give it a +4 bonus due to it being secured. Not quite a locked gauntlet but still good.

From a RAW perspective, since a shield can be used as a weapon then I would say it can be disarmed.

 

[ARandomGod]

Well, I've done it in play. I suppose you could cut the straps securing the shield, or just rip it off by main force. The DM treated it as if the shield was being used as a weapon using the shield bash rules. Give it a +4 bonus due to it being secured. Not quite a locked gauntlet but still good.

From a RAW perspective, since a shield can be used as a weapon then I would say it can be disarmed.

Interesting question.

Under grab I wouldn't allow it unless the character was pinned, as I'd count it as 'well secured'.

Just looking at disarm it seems to imply that it has to be a weapon. So a shield could definitely be disarmed. However, once again I'd count it as well secured and treat it as if the character weilding the shield were wearing locked gauntlets. I'd also count a tower shield as large, a buckler as small, and other shields as medium (none of them as two handed, however... )

Neither a buckler nor a tower shield can be used to bash someone with, so they can't be counted as weapons.

So the answer is unclear. Ask again later.

Actually I'd treat it depending on how it's being used. If the shield were ever used as a weapon by the character, I'd allow it to be disarmed via the disarm rule. I would give it the locked gauntlet +10. If the shield was never used as a weapon, then I would make it follow the grab rules.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So someone couldn't grab onto the shield during a grapple attempt and wrestle it away?

In a grapple, yes, but you need to be pinning your opponent.

What about someone striking a shield user with a disarm attempt using a weapon?

No, because I view the shield as well secured, which makes the disarm attempt impossible.

 

[RuminDange]

In a grapple, yes, but you need to be pinning your opponent.

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well, requiring a pin first before being able to take it away.

No, because I view the shield as well secured, which makes the disarm attempt impossible.

I'd probably go with what ARandomGod stated and say yes but give the +10 bonus like the lock guantlet, and never go with impossible as it can be done if you think about it bashing on a shield until the user's arm goes numb and he drops the shield, etc.... Just my thinking after my player brought it up and we discussed it.

RD

 

[Taren Seeker]

I think +10 is too high a bonus. A locked gauntlet seems much more secure to me than a shield. Consider that it takes a Full Round Action to add or remove a weapon from a locked gauntlet and it provokes an AOO, as opposed to a Move Equivalent for a shield and no AOO. It's much less difficult and requires less concentration.

+4, the same bonus as having a weapon in 2 hands, feels about right to me. I agree that bucklers shouldn't be treated as a weapon because it is actually a worn item. A tower shield...well it's just too massive in normal circumstances. You need to disarm it as a secured item.

 

[RuminDange]

I think +10 is too high a bonus. A locked gauntlet seems much more secure to me than a shield. Consider that it takes a Full Round Action to add or remove a weapon from a locked gauntlet and it provokes an AOO, as opposed to a Move Equivalent for a shield and no AOO. It's much less difficult and requires less concentration.

+4, the same bonus as having a weapon in 2 hands, feels about right to me. I agree that bucklers shouldn't be treated as a weapon because it is actually a worn item. A tower shield...well it's just too massive in normal circumstances. You need to disarm it as a secured item.

Good point. Since RAW really doesn't 100% cover it (go figure* ), I'll probably mull this over a little more, talk it over with the rest of the group and make the house rule to cover it.
Thanks.

RD

*But then again it shouldn't since they are guidlines anyway.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'd probably go with what ARandomGod stated and say yes but give the +10 bonus like the lock guantlet, and never go with impossible as it can be done if you think about it bashing on a shield until the user's arm goes numb and he drops the shield, etc.... Just my thinking after my player brought it up and we discussed it.

Well, a shield is specifically strapped to your arm. It's not just held in place. Making the opponent's arm numb (even if there were such a mechanic, but there isn't) will not force him to release the shield. Then you need to cut the straps, which are located on the other side of the shield. How do you propose that you can cut those straps? I quite honestly can't see a reasonable argument that states that shields are not well-secured.