Disarm and AOO

Re: Re: Re: Re: Disarm and AOO

My bad. Seems a little strange though.

It does, especially since the text of Strike a Weapon says "You can use a melee attack with a slashing weapon..."

But the Table is pretty unambiguous, and it's expressed similarly in the SRD.

I've seen a lot of people go "Huh. Oh well, Rule 0..." when the Table is pointed out.

-Hyp.
 

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Hypersmurf said:


Why doesn't a reach weapon provoke an AoO for "leaving a threatened area" on a normal attack, then?

-Hyp.

Because weapons don't provoke for that. Otherwise you would provoke an AoO on every attack.
 

dcollins said:


Out-of-game explanation: Because he's not threatened and you can only make an AOO against characters you threaten.

Ah, but you aren't attacking the character directly, you are disarming his weapon, or using it to pull him off-balance (trip).

In-game explanation: Because part of the disarm process may be striking the hands/grip of the weapon wielder.

Sorry, I just don't think that a using a reach weapon is intended to grant you Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder.
 

Caliban said:
Ah, but you aren't attacking the character directly, you are disarming his weapon, or using it to pull him off-balance (trip).

I just don't see either of those distinctions in the rules anywhere.
 
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dcollins said:
Caliban, could you provide a reference why that's possible? I'm not seeing where those options are allowed if the AOO-maker does not threaten the opponent.
from SRD

Disarm(4) [Varies][AoO: Yes]
Description: The character and an adjacent target make opposed attack rolls with the their respective weapons. If the weapons are different sizes, the opponent with the larger weapon gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the target is using a weapon in two hands, he gets an additional +4 bonus. If the character beats the target, the target is disarmed. If a character attempted the disarm action unarmed, the character now has the weapon. Otherwise, it drops to the ground at the target's feet. If the character fails, then the target may make an attempt to disarm the character as an immediate, free action.
Note: A target wearing spiked gauntlets can't be relieved of the gauntlets by a disarm action. A target using a weapon attached to a locked gauntlet gets a +10 bonus to any disarm attempt made by an opponent.
This action substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.



Strike a weapon [Standard][AoO: Yes]
Description: A character can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that a character's opponent is holding. The attacking weapon must be no more than one size category smaller than the weapon attacked. (Treat a buckler as Small, a small shield as Medium-size, a large shield as Large, and a tower shield as Huge.) Doing so provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent because the character is diverting it's attention from the opponent to the opponent's armaments.
Then the attacker and the defender make opposed attack rolls. If the attacker wins, the attacker has made a successful attack against the weapon or shield.


Trip an opponent [Varies][AoO: No]
A character can try to trip an opponent as a melee attack. A character can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than a character, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make a melee attack as a melee touch attack. If the attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender's Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A character gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium-size or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller. The defender gets a +4 stability bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If a character win, a character trip the defender. If a character lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by a character's Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip a character.
A tripped character is prone. Standing up from prone is a move-equivalent action.
A character may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may use his Ride skill in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If a character succeed, a character pull the rider from his mount.
This attack form substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As a melee attack, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.



Do they provoke a AoO?
Disarm "Yes"
Stricking a Weapon "Yes"
Trip "No"

Does it say that if you use a reach weapon or have reach that you do not provoke these AoO? "No"

Even the Disarm and Trip they get if you fail is not stoped by reach because they are not AoO and you do not need to threaten to perform them.
 

Does it say that if you use a reach weapon or have reach that you do not provoke these AoO? "No"

True, but as nimisgod quoted above, "An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area provokes an Attack of Opportunity from you."

The enemy is not taking certain actions while in a threatened area, and thus does not provoke an AoO.

Even the Disarm and Trip they get if you fail is not stoped by reach because they are not AoO and you do not need to threaten to perform them.

Now, that one, I'm not going to argue with. The logic there looks fine to me :)

AoOs only if you're threatened, countertrip or counterdisarm regardless. Works for me.

-Hyp.
 

dcollins said:


I just don't see either of those distinctions in the rules anywhere.

Maybe your vision is to narrow. I don't see it being specifically disallowed, and it makes sense to allow it.


Performing the action with a non-reach weapon opens you up to a Disarm against your weapon, or an attack against yoursef.

Performing it with a reach weapon keeps you out of reach, but why should it make your weapon invulnerable? Why can't they grab the end of your pole-arm, or hook your spiked chain with their weapon and try to pull it out of your grip when you lower your guard?

Where is it written in the rules that reach weapons give you Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder?
 

Hypersmurf said:


True, but as nimisgod quoted above, "An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area provokes an Attack of Opportunity from you."

The enemy is not taking certain actions while in a threatened area, and thus does not provoke an AoO.

Ah, but the reach weapon is an "Attended Item" and thus considered part of your enemy.

Your enemy is performing the action (disarm) and it is taking place within your threatened space, through his weapon.

Your enemy's body may not be close enough to target, but the weapon certainly is, with a Trip or Disarm.
 

Ah, but the reach weapon is an "Attended Item" and thus considered part of your enemy.

Your enemy is performing the action (disarm) and it is taking place within your threatened space, through his weapon.

Unfortunately, the only example in the FAQ is for touch attacks, so I don't know how applicable it is. But in that case, you can't target someone by touching the tip of their longspear ten feet awat; you have to be able to reach into the square to use a touch spell.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:


Unfortunately, the only example in the FAQ is for touch attacks, so I don't know how applicable it is. But in that case, you can't target someone by touching the tip of their longspear ten feet awat; you have to be able to reach into the square to use a touch spell.

-Hyp.

All I'm saying is that the act of disarming or sundering provokes an AoO (if you don't have the appropriate feats).

You are performing the action, and the action takes place within their threatened range, therefore I think you would provoke the AoO, it just couldn't be targeted against you directly (unless they also have reach).

I think it's reasonable to allow the AoO to take the form of a Disarm or Trip attack though.

I find it less reasonable to assume that reach weapons automatically confer the benefits of Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder against non-reach opponents.
 
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