Disbelieving Invisibility?

[amethal]

Can you try and disbelieve against an opponent who has cast invisibility, in the same way you can with other illusions?

If so, do people actually do this, as I've never seen it done in a game?

 

[FEADIN]

No but you can try to Spot it.

 

[irdeggman]

Well. . .

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus

Now that means first you have to locate the creature, then you have to study or interact with it.

Usually before you get a chance to interact with an invisible opponent they have already attacked you or run away.

And no I would never, ever allow a character to say "I disbelieve" when someone appears to vanish.

 

[Jack Simth]

Well. . .




Now that means first you have to locate the creature, then you have to study or interact with it.

Usually before you get a chance to interact with an invisible opponent they have already attacked you or run away.

And no I would never, ever allow a character to say "I disbelieve" when someone appears to vanish.

Unlike Silent Image's "Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)", Invisibility has "Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object)". Silent Image you can disbelieve as a viewer (because that's what the saving throw line says). Invisibility, however, has a different saving throw - "Will negates (harmless)". Invisibility only affects the subject, not observers, so there is no disbelief to roll for someone attempting to spot the invisible person.

 

[Jhaelen]

And no I would never, ever allow a character to say "I disbelieve" when someone appears to vanish.

Of course, I'd allow it. Freedom of speech and all that... not that it'll do her a lot of good

 

[slwoyach]

You know, I've never thought about it but maybe you should be able to disbelieve. It's not like the character really vanishes, he's still there. It's the same basic principle as silent image.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

You know, I've never thought about it but maybe you should be able to disbelieve. It's not like the character really vanishes, he's still there. It's the same basic principle as silent image.

It's not quite the same. With silent image, you have a target--Is that one specific image real, or an illusion? You can actively attempt to see through it.

With invisibility, however, you have no target--Is that patch of air an invisible creature? Is that one? How about that one? There's nothing there to disbelieve.

 

[Vegepygmy]

With invisibility, however, you have no target--Is that patch of air an invisible creature? Is that one? How about that one? There's nothing there to disbelieve.

That's not why you can't disbelieve invisibility.

You can't disbelieve invisibility because the spell allows a "Will negates" saving throw, not a "Will disbelief" saving throw like silent image does. See PHB, page 177:

Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

Who is the subject of an invisibility spell? The recipient. So only the recipient gets to make a saving throw, and it's to negate the spell's effect (which is to cause invisibility).

Disbelief: A successful save lets the subject ignore the effect.

Who is the subject of a silent image spell? Anyone perceiving the effect. So they get to make a saving throw if they interact with it, and it's to disbelieve the effect (which is the illusionary image).

Jack Simth explained this above, but apparently it didn't register.

 

[amethal]

Thanks for all the responses. Much appreciated.

 

[irdeggman]

That's not why you can't disbelieve invisibility.

You can't disbelieve invisibility because the spell allows a "Will negates" saving throw, not a "Will disbelief" saving throw like silent image does. See PHB, page 177:

Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

Who is the subject of an invisibility spell? The recipient. So only the recipient gets to make a saving throw, and it's to negate the spell's effect (which is to cause invisibility).

Disbelief: A successful save lets the subject ignore the effect.

Who is the subject of a silent image spell? Anyone perceiving the effect. So they get to make a saving throw if they interact with it, and it's to disbelieve the effect (which is the illusionary image).

Jack Simth explained this above, but apparently it didn't register.

That is specifically what I was looking for - a spell with a save that said Will (disbelief) but I couldn't really find one. Because that is exactly how I think is is supposed to work.

The only reason I went on with the explanation of "interacting" was to point out that if someone wanted to go that route then the other requisistes needed to be met also the invisible creature is always free to move so the actual square must be determined before any of the other possibilites could even come into play.