D&D General Discuss: Combat as War in D&D

Weiley31

Legend
Depends on what the PC's are fighting: If they are fighting military Hobgoblins, then it's gonna depend on whether its a War Band that is scorching earth or if they are just gaining territory with hostage taking. If it's a monster with a lower intelligence or what not, then they are fighting for food and could easily split as soon as its seen not worth it.

Are they cunning and utilize every trick? Are they bound by an Honor Code?

Honestly, all differs and depends on what exactly is being fought.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Depends on what the PC's are fighting: If they are fighting military Hobgoblins, then it's gonna depend on whether its a War Band that is scorching earth or if they are just gaining territory with hostage taking. If it's a monster with a lower intelligence or what not, then they are fighting for food and could easily split as soon as its seen not worth it.

Are they cunning and utilize every trick? Are they bound by an Honor Code?

Honestly, all differs and depends on what exactly is being fought.
Which are all aspects the DM ultimately determines. If powerful, smart, tactical, ruthless enemies never target the PCs using CaW style tactics then ultimately the DM chose that not to happen.

and just in case this is misconstrued, the argument isn’t that all enemies must be this way.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
That’s a decent summary.

I think we could also add this. CaS is when the DM is setting out to create balanced encounters and expects the party to engage in them or at least in some of them.

Typical CaW is when the DM just creates encounters and allows the players to determine how to engage - or even whether to engage at all.

CaW as typically played has alot of pre and post encounter strategy/tactical elements.

which brings me to my initial op supposition. That there must be some method of limiting powerful, smart, tactical, ruthless enemies (relative to the PCs) from targeting the PCs. Once those start to come into play with more regularity then the PCs won’t last long. I view these kinds of enemies as inevitably arising unless curbed by dm fiat.
I think that it can certainly be a result of DM fiat. That's a perfectly viable approach, and certainly the easiest.

Other games may put the responsibility upon the players to survive ruthless enemies. They may have to run around with constant Nondetection and always remember to check the handle of the door to their inn room for contact poison (etc), but it could work provided the players maintain constant vigilance and aren't completely outclassed. I suppose that in this type of campaign, it would be important to research potential enemies and avoid angering anyone who'd be more than the party could handle.

Obviously, if the DM wants to kill the players they can, but if they've created an NPC with limited means and then limit themselves to those means when going after the players, they could avoid using fiat. However, that does put a lot of the responsibility for survival squarely on the players. Your strategy can't just be limited to how to win the encounter, but also needs to consider whether you can afford to start the war that this might trigger.

Even then, the players would probably need to play extremely effectively to avoid being killed by a ruthless and determined enemy, without the intervention of DM fiat.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think that it can certainly be a result of DM fiat. That's a perfectly viable approach, and certainly the easiest.

Other games may put the responsibility upon the players to survive ruthless enemies. They may have to run around with constant Nondetection and always remember to check the handle of the door to their inn room for contact poison (etc), but it could work provided the players maintain constant vigilance and aren't completely outclassed. I suppose that in this type of campaign, it would be important to research potential enemies and avoid angering anyone who'd be more than the party could handle.

Obviously, if the DM wants to kill the players they can, but if they've created an NPC with limited means and then limit themselves to those means when going after the players, they could avoid using fiat. However, that does put a lot of the responsibility for survival squarely on the players. Your strategy can't just be limited to how to win the encounter, but also needs to consider whether you can afford to start the war that this might trigger.

Even then, the players would probably need to play extremely effectively to avoid being killed by a ruthless and determined enemy, without the intervention of DM fiat.
I mostly agree with this except one thing - isn’t it mostly dm fiat to not have any enemies that outclass them and are intelligent and ruthless go after them?

I mean I agree doing so doesn’t make a great game, but what’s really preventing that from occurring beyond the dm choosing for it not to.
 

I like combat as adventure, but I think combat as extermination doesn't quite capture the same tone as combat as war, or strategic combat.

The difference I am trying to get across, is the way a combat as war campaign plays differently from a combat as adventure campaign. Its not just all about the combat. In a war campaign, the battle and strategy loom over the entire campaign. The players have to constantly be mindful what the opposition is planning, and the DM plays the opposition as if literally putting armies into motion.

This doesn't mean that combat as war is a meatgrinder that the players are sure to lose in the long run, as some other posters have suggested. Any campaign can be a meatgrinder or a walk in the park, depending on how difficult the DM chooses to make it.

In a combat as war campaign the DM tries to play the opposition to the best of their capabilities, and with ruthless efficiency. The DM is making an effort to let the bad guys win. But the capabilities of the opposition are still limited by their relative strength when compared to the party, the amount of resources they have at their disposal, and time. And so, balancing a combat as war is not all that different from a combat as adventure campaign. The DM is still trying to create fair winnable scenarios. But 'winning' in this case, may not always be a simple case of walking up to the monster and hitting it on the head till it stops moving. It requires more thought and strategy.
I just don't agree with this, because I don't agree that genuine strategy is possible, in an 'all out total war' sense in an RPG. The world is not detailed enough. The GM is free to invent new reasons why this or that fails or succeeds at any moment, and can always justify it with some logistical, environmental, tactical, etc. factor he's just invented. I'm not even saying this is done in a spirit of 'screwing up' anyone's plans or whatnot, just that GAME considerations always end up overriding everything else.

In an actual wargame, like say Afrika Corps (published in the 1960's by Avalon Hill, I don't think any of that series of games is in print now) the game is simply like Chess, all possible rules and situations are covered, everything is determined by them, and any considerations outside of what the designer thought of are simply impossible to model in that game. This is totally different from D&D, which cannot be classified in any form as a wargame or even having the elements of a wargame. It is an exercise in creating a shared imagined space and a fiction associated with it. Anything can and does happen, and there are no quantified rules for how or why it does. It isn't simulating anything, even if there are some trappings of such.

AT LEAST you would need a truly disengaged neutral 3rd party referee who would agree to provide the adjudication of each factor that 2 opposing sides wished to try to factor in before it would become anything like a simulation. Without that 'simulation character' the idea of actual STRATEGY is meaningless. You do not, and can not, know the relevant factors on which to plan. It is impossible.
An example:

In my campaign I had a tower on a peninsula. The tower had a powerful lens on top of it, that could be an important war asset, as it could set ships aflame that were in range. The big bad attempted to take this tower for himself with an all out assault. They invaded the tower through subterfuge and through a simultaneous underwater invasion into the subterranean harbor of the tower.

The players first had to fight against the forces that were already there, while trying to prevent reinforcements from overwhelming them. The fight was skewed against them on purpose. There was a real risk of defeat, which would mean either death or a forced retreat. The players might have had to sacrifice the harbor, or they might have had to abandon the tower entirely, after which it would fall into enemy hands.

In the end they secured the tower, but blew up the harbor. This meant the powerful lens weapon would be available to them during the next naval battle (and any battle to come), but the harbor was forever lost.
Seems more like a narratively driven kind of 'put up some stakes, pick your battle, and lets see how much trouble you get into' kind of thing to me, though I'm sure that in play it was much more involved with details of terrain and whatnot.

So, my thinking is that it is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to have 'Combat as Battle' than 'Combat as War'. That is, a strictly tactical scenario where all the elements which will come into play have been defined, and the scope is minutes to hours, is a lot less likely to fall prey to "there are other factors, like X!" which is likely to happen in any more complex and drawn-out situation, like a whole war/military campaign. Intelligence can mostly be brought down to the level of 'Fog of War' which RPGs exploration mechanics can generally handle, etc. A GM, or players, can still potentially drag in new understandings of the fictional setting, etc., but there is less scope.


Another example:

The party received intel that the big bad was attempting to establish a base somewhere off the coast. This base would then create a portal to another dimension, allowing the big bad to more easily send its fleet to the surface. Meanwhile, there were also reports of an attack on an allied town.

The party had to make a choice. Would they come to the aid of the town and risk the enemy fortifying their base, with the added risk that the fight might be over by the time they arrived? Or would they commit to an early strike against the base while its defenses were low, but leave the town to fend for itself?

Losing the town would be a great loss of life, plus it would mean one less safe port for the players to rely on. They would also no longer get intel from the town on enemy movement if it was destroyed.

But allowing the enemy to build its base, would allow their enemy to make it strong enough to repel any attacks that they could currently launch against it. This would fortify the enemy's position in the region and greatly strengthen its fleet.
Again, though, this fiction, at the level described could easily fit within any classic 4e campaign's paradigm. It involves a lot of 'rock and a hard place' sorts of challenge, but that is not really IMHO necessarily the same thing as a completely 'CAW' situation in the way I think it is normally understood.

I think there is obviously a continuum in tone between extremes, and also the possibility that you can, for example, have a very harsh 'all out war' kind of feel to the campaign, but then run encounters in a much more setpiece style of "well, you did all the things to make your effort a success, and THIS is what you meet!" 4e even has mechanics for it, the SC. Its perfectly canonical to say "Oh, you won that SC, your reward is you avoid the fight" or something like that. But if you did fight, it will be, at least to a degree, level-appropriate. If it is now trivial, 4e would rather you didn't play it out, maybe it becomes another low-complexity SC, something like that.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Well, maybe unusual in that this type of play was being used at all, since it is a lot harder to pull off/more work than standard directed play. I think, once you get into this way of playing, this is the sort of scenario you run into. Of course there's a range. I set the PC against a level+7 elite 'crawler. They figured out how to win, that was in 4e. It was not super typical play in that campaign, though I have done similar things a few other times.
In older editions it was a lot easier to pull off that kind of thing at low levels and groups not interested in ot could start st level 2 5 or whatever as was common

. The example was unusual for me since the vast majority of my campaigns (including that one) take place at level one and above. For what its worth the players didn't stumble into those winter wolves, they were offered a fabulous opportunity to get a ton of equipment (ie starting gear) up from their "they are weapons we could afford" if they could deal with the war wolves causing problems before the denieth squad of mercenaries show up in a month or so to deal with it as planned
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I mostly agree with this except one thing - isn’t it mostly dm fiat to not have any enemies that outclass them intelligently and ruthlessly go after them?

I mean I agree doing so doesn’t make a great game, but what’s really preventing that from occurring beyond the dm choosing for it not to.
To a certain extent, but if you populate the world with NPCs of varying capabilities, then it's viable.

Imagine that the PCs are law enforcement. There's a big difference between whether they go after Al Capone, the local gang, or a drug dealer who doesn't have any affiliations.

If they are low level and anger Capone, they can probably kiss themselves goodbye. If they go after the drug dealer though, there's a good chance that they can handle things. He's one drug dealer. Even if he escapes and hires some muscle to go after the PCs, it's not necessarily going to be more than they can handle. He's a small time drug dealer, so he's probably not hiring ex-black-ops guys. He's hiring what he can afford. Even if that muscle is played to their max intelligence, and as ruthlessly as possible, it's not a given that the PCs won't be able to survive what's coming provided they plan for it. Defense is harder than offense, but it isn't impossible.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
To a certain extent, but if you populate the world with NPCs of varying capabilities, then it's viable.

Imagine that the PCs are law enforcement. There's a big difference between whether they go after Al Capone, the local gang, or a drug dealer who doesn't have any affiliations.

If they are low level and anger Capone, they can probably kiss themselves goodbye. If they go after the drug dealer though, there's a good chance that they can handle things. He's one drug dealer. Even if he escapes and hires some muscle to go after the PCs, it's not necessarily going to be more than they can handle. He's a small time drug dealer, so he's probably not hiring ex-black-ops guys. He's hiring what he can afford. Even if that muscle is played to their max intelligence, and as ruthlessly as possible, it's not a given that the PCs won't be able to survive what's coming provided they plan for it. Defense is harder than offense, but it isn't impossible.
So if the dm by fiat creates a world such that PCs going after level appropriate threats will never become the target of more powerful foes.

yes that works, but isn’t it still occurring via dm fiat?
 

In which games does it not happen?
I assume what @FrogReaver is implying in the OP is that CaW is not something that is really practiced much, because if it was, then every party would be inevitably doomed to being wiped out at some point, because it would just be so brutal.

I think we have dissected the whole thing enough to determine several points:

1. Even if hypothetically this was true, in a game of finite duration it will only happen with an expected probability of P, which we cannot determine on first principles.
2. It must presuppose some definition of CaW which heavily equates it with lethality for the PCs, but that is far from a consensus definition.
3. The implication seems to be, as a corollary that any game where PCs are not defeated or must always take extreme measures to avoid defeat is inherently 'CaS' (or something else entirely).

It seems to me that, having pretty much disposed of the original thesis, we have moved on to discussions about what constitutes certain styles of play and some closely related topics.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I assume what @FrogReaver is implying in the OP is that CaW is not something that is really practiced much, because if it was, then every party would be inevitably doomed to being wiped out at some point, because it would just be so brutal.

I think we have dissected the whole thing enough to determine several points:

1. Even if hypothetically this was true, in a game of finite duration it will only happen with an expected probability of P, which we cannot determine on first principles.
2. It must presuppose some definition of CaW which heavily equates it with lethality for the PCs, but that is far from a consensus definition.
3. The implication seems to be, as a corollary that any game where PCs are not defeated or must always take extreme measures to avoid defeat is inherently 'CaS' (or something else entirely).

It seems to me that, having pretty much disposed of the original thesis, we have moved on to discussions about what constitutes certain styles of play and some closely related topics.
I pretty much disagree on all of the above. But I don’t find the need to reiterate the points I’ve already made against this line of argument.
 

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