Lanefan
Victoria Rules
I never got deep enough into 3e to know what Spheres of Power/Might even were (are they a 3.5 thing? never really did 3.5).You can have that....and yet also have threat assessment that is relative. See below for a real-world example.
Whereas I would rather spend my money on a good execution, and then simply not buy things that don't cater to my interests. And the real problem is more that what 3e did is debatably good--and the execution was very, very bad. When the execution is so bad you have to disassemble the entire edifice before you can build something effective in its place, it's quite easy to argue that no amount of "good idea" is enough to justify it. I mean, consider the Spheres of Power/Spheres of Might stuff for Pathfinder--even its ardent supporters admit that it doesn't actually FIX caster-vs-martial problems, it just papers over them well enough that they usually won't adversely affect a group prepared for them. (Or, y'know, just PF2e, where the PF designers openly admitted the only way to move forward was to redesign the system.)
The underlying principle in 3e of tying every creature in the setting to a quasi-universal and consistent-within-setting mechanical framework is an excellent starting point. That they then went on and kinda butchered the execution doesn't diminish this.
First thing: the whole idea of CR, while possibly helpful for new DMs, isn't something I really subscribe to. What that means is that I don't really care what "CR6" actually means in any given situation; it's a red herring.Except that that's the problem: those absolute numbers now enslave the whole system to making sure they stay absolute....or else the system just turns belly-up and is worthless. Or, I guess, the 5e solution of "here's some numbers...and if they don't work, you figure it out," which I am extremely not a fan of. You have to constrain what low-level players can do, so that "CR6" actually means "CR6," and not "CR6 unless you have a Wizard built to one-shot it," where "CR8" means "CR8" and not "CR8 unless the Fighter gets 4 crits in a row because of Action Surge." More on this below.
But to say that Grunt the Ogre has 45 hit points doesn't constrain anything. Grunt has 45 h.p., just like Bob the PC Fighter has 63 hit points: those hit point values are locked in as part of those creatures' mechanical descriptions. Our little rat has 7 hit points, same thing.
There's nothing wrong with assessing threats as relative until-unless that assessment starts forcing mechanical changes; at which point it violates setting consistency.By making relative threat assessments rather than absolute ones, you liberate yourself from having to so tightly constrain things. A level 5 fight is designed to be challenging for typical 5th level characters, but maybe you punch above your weight tonight, or maybe you punch below your weight and have to retreat. (Yes, I have specifically had to do this at least twice in 4e.)
Because then you end up with, in a way, Schroedinger's lock. That particular element of the physical setting in which the characters are supposed to operate becomes inconsistent with itself from one moment to the next, which in my view is unacceptable setting design.What if the stats don't tell you "this is an absolute, ideal ogre, in every detail necessary," but rather tell you "this is what an ogre means to you"? Absolute mechanics are perfect truths present everywhere--an ogre is like an electron, it has one (rest) mass, one charge, one dipole moment, etc. Relative mechanics are mechanics true for a situation. E.g. instead of having an absolute "this lock is DC 25," and then needing to rigidly control what numbers the player is permitted to attain so that that number is impossible at 1st level and trivial at 20th, you instead say "this lock is designed to be hard for a 5th level character," so that the numbers naturally represent the world?
It isn't identical in threat, not due to anything that's changed about it but due to what's changed about the PCs as they've advanced in level. It still is what it was.Under that notion, "an ogre is designed to be hard for a 6th level character" is a perfectly natural way to speak about it: you're talking about a world where "6th level character" MEANS "person who would find it hard, but not impossible, to defeat an ogre by themselves." And then all those different ways of cashing it out--a solo, an elite, a minion, whatever--are all recognizing the fact that it isn't a 6th-level character, and thus it shouldn't be identical in threat.
An analogy might be your elementary school gymnasium. When you were a kid it seemed huge, but go back and visit as an adult and it seems way smaller. Nothing's changed about the physical gym - it's the same size it always was - but your perception of it has altered. The change is in you, not the gym.
The parallel here is that the change is in the PC, not the ogre or the rat.
I don't use threat assessment as a starting point. The creature is what it is and it's up to the players/PCs to figure out its degree of threat.Again: threat is a relative assessment. Why should we make it absolute? It's quite easy to set absolute non-combat attributes (since, if we're being quite honest, those rarely matter--and when they do matter, you know better than any designer could what they should be if you disagree with what's written down).
But that's the thing. The entity's inherent nature isn't what is relevant for a threat assessment. The entity's relative power is what is relevant.
Whcih again means the difference is in the patient (the PC), not the pathogen (the ogre). You've made my point for me, here.Opportunistic infections--such as Kaposi's sarcoma-associated herpesvirus or candidiasis--are mostly harmless to everyday folks, but potentially lethal to anyone immuno-compromised. Instead of rating it in absolute terms, it is much, much more useful to rate it in relative terms. Relative to a healthy adult immune system, they're almost never dangerous and can usually be disregarded as a cause of illness. Relative to patients with weak or undeveloped immune systems, however, they need to be considered. (I got an oral candidiasis infection as a child, for example.) Same exact pathogens; it's not like we can alter their physical makeup IRL. But we assess them differently, depending on different circumstances.
But nothing physically changes about the teen, or the 2x4, when faced with each of these opponents; and therefore were this a game there's absolutely no reason to change any of the teen's mechanical descriptors.A teen with a two-by-four is dangerous to an ordinary unarmed citizen and no threat to a trained soldier because of what the unarmed citizen and trained soldier are, not because of what the teen is.
To me they're being measured against the setting as a whole. The setting is more than just the PCs.Why? Do you regularly play the entire setting all at once?
Also, technically, they aren't even being measured against your PCs. They're being measured against idealized "standard" PCs. Actual PCs--and their ploys and foibles--will always meaningfully differ. The goal of designing the system so it works is to make it so a reasonable level of "expected unexpectables" are accounted for without distorting the utility of the system.
I should mention that I only have the first DMG for 4e; on reading it (and the PH, and the MM) I decided not to bother following it any further.Being perfectly honest? There are a few bits in the 4e DMG that...aren't great.
Ditto for the allegedly viable but actually pushover range; the point is that the wider that allegedly-viable range is the better IMO.In my experience, it is the opposite. Or, rather, the swingier things become, the wider its "allegedly viable but actually deadly" range becomes.
And 3e, and 5e. I don't use a numerical rating system, the encounters are what they are and over time there's going to be a mix ranging from "utterly trivial" to "you can't win this".It is perfectly viable--and I know this is actually in the 4e DMG--to use combats up to +/- 4 levels of the party. The very extreme ends, especially at low levels (e.g. average party level >4) can be too swingy because that sort of thing tends to happen ANY time you're at extremes, but at most party levels, a -4 fight will be quick but still potentially dangerous (especially if you use smart tactics/ambush or get lucky) while a +4 fight will be VERY dangerous but still within the realm of winnable. And you very explicitly SHOULD provide a mix of encounters at, above, and below the party's level--both to create variety, and to let the party have a sense of progression. That, too, I know is present in the 4e DMG.
I guess I'm here for alternate-real.Yeah, I'm not here for real. I'm here for fantasy.
A death-free adventure in my games is unusual - there's most often one or two - but a TPK is very rare: I've DMed one TPK in 37 years. Also, an average adventure in my games takes about 8-10 sessions to play through, so it's not like there's a death every session*.Alright, so my numbers were slightly high. But, in my (admittedly limited) experience of OSR play....having the whole party die every 3-4 sessions really isn't that weird. Maybe a little more lethal than usual, but "the whole party survived an adventure" is, as I understood it, something to genuinely celebrate because it doesn't happen plenty often.
* - unless you play gonzo like they did in the first adventure in my current campaign: in 20 sessions they turned the whole party over twice, one and two characters at a time, and I don't think they ever stopped laughing.
Yeah, I go for a bit more of a gritty style. High adventure and heroism can be fine for a while, but that's all.I was trying for fairness on those, yeah. As Imaculata pointed out, C-as-X may be incomplete, but I'm glad it worked for you. I like C-as-A because...well, adventure is what a lot of people sign up for, regardless of what they like, and because it feels a bit like the "Brighthammer" tagline I love so much: "In the noble brightness of the far future, there is only HIGH ADVENTURE!"
The thing with C-as-A and the setback-rally-recovery-victory pattern in combat is that the pattern becomes very predictable, and thus boring. I remember seeing this in 3e, where it became almost a meme or joke amongst us that if we could get to the third round of combat we'd win no matter what.Well...okay, but that's sort of what I'm getting at. Being so eager to go over that line--and making it hard to pull back from it--is the opposite of volatility. Because it means that a definite answer, death, is quite common. Combat-as-adventure EXPECTS that you will have setbacks to start with, and then rally and recover--though sometimes the rally-and-recovery fails to be enough and you have to retreat. Combat-as-war (or extermination, or whatever term you prefer) makes pretty much any setback at least potentially immediately lethal--and that's even after you've done your level best to do something about setbacks ahead of time.
That said, I'm all about unpredictability in combat: re-rolled initiatives each round, fog-of-war, etc.