Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Mobius]

What are you, some kind of gaming activist? Who cares why they made the game. Do you like it, or not?

Who cares? *I* do. Not all of us out here are so apathetic in our buying decisions as you seem to be.

I have found that there two types of people in this world:

Type A:

Gives a rat's ass about how and why things are done. They pick up garbage, picket Wal-Mart, invest ethically, buy from other human beings, reward good people with their custom, buy quality products that last, etc. because there are good, long-term reasons to do these things.

Type B:

Don't give a rat's ass about how and why things are done. They drop garbage on the ground, shop at Wal-Mart, invest indiscriminately, buy from machines, reward greedy jerks with their custom, buy ty products that they replace every month or so, etc. because they don't care about anyone else but themselves.

My credo is that substandard people subscribe to the cult of the substandard. WotC fails on both counts. They are substandard people because they care more about the money in our collective wallets than they do about the people that own the wallets. They also purposefully put out a substandard product they knew could have been better.

Maybe you are OK with half-assed treatment and a half-assed product, but it takes more than that to get my money.

 

[Horacio]

Wait, now I'm trying to tell people how to take advantage of Harnic resources to enhance their d20 campaigns and you're telling me not to even talk about Harn at all anymore?

Hey, Kap, talk about what you want!

I was only giving my opinion. In my opinion, saying it once or twice is good, sqying it three hundred and sixty two times bores people. YMMV, of course...

 

[Bagpuss]

My credo is that substandard people subscribe to the cult of the substandard. WotC fails on both counts. They are substandard people because they care more about the money in our collective wallets than they do about the people that own the wallets. They also purposefully put out a substandard product they knew could have been better.

Maybe you are OK with half-assed treatment and a half-assed product, but it takes more than that to get my money.

3rd Edition D&D has to have been the most playtested and analysed system before it was published. They got feedback direct from the people that play the game and use the product. Anyone that has been with this site from before 3E was published knows that.

If you saw the information available leaked by playtesters their feedback and the changes to the final product then you know that 3E D&D had always listened to the customer during the creation process.

Virtually everything in the game is there for a reason, if you don't like the way AC works, tough you'll find the majority of people are happy with it. Its nice and simple and makes for a fun and easy game. If you don't like the way skills work well tought you'll find most people are happy with it. Its nice and simple and makes for a fun and easy game.

3rd edition is anything but half-assed. Its not evil or wrong to make money you know. If WotC didn't make money on D&D they might as well have let it go down with TSR who were in real finacial trouble. Then the roleplaying industry would probably be in a very sorry state.

Think how few RPG compaies there were before WotC bought out TSR and produced D&D, and what was happening to some of the well know names like FASA. Each of those new companies employ people, I think there are a few people on these boards that have earned some money out of 3rd Edition, but not just earn money had a chance to show the world the work they can do and get real credit for it.

Claudio Pozas art work for a start, I have his counter collection, The Natural Press people, and a number of others have got thier stuff published. Pretty much thanks to the SRD, the OGL and D20 license, which WotC could have not allowed to happen.

The whole 3rd Edition D&D, OGL, D20 license has probably been a massive boost to the industry. I know my local game shop probably would have gone out of business otherwise, as the cash-cow that was Magic and other CCG's was not doing anywhere near as well as it use to.

So sure WotC is the evil empire go burn your D&D books.

 

[Mark]

Its not evil or wrong to make money you know.

Well said, Bagpuss!

Bagpuss Familiar: CR _; Tiny magical (stuffed) beast; hd 1/2; hp 1/2 master's; Init +2; Speed 30 ft, tossed 15 ft; AC 15; Melee attack +4/+4/-1 melee, +10 ranged (1d4/1d4/1d2/2d10 claw/claw/bite/bean); SQ Grant +4 wisdom modifier, grant Game Design Sensitivity, grant Alertness, share knowledge 3ED&D/d20, empathic link; SV Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +10; Str 3, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18.

Skills and Feats: Appraise +10, Gather Information +10, Knowledge (D&D3E/d20) +10, Listen +10, Perform +10, Sense Motive +10, Spot +10; Alertness, Weapon Finesse (Tongue of Sharpness).

 

[Horacio]

Well said, Bagpuss!

Bagpuss Familiar: CR _; Tiny magical (stuffed) beast; hd 1/2; hp 1/2

I disagree, 1/2 HD should give 2 hp, not 1/2 hp...

 

[Celtavian]

Re

The 3rd edition was a vast improvement over the old editions. There are a few changes I would like to see made in future editions, but overall, I am very pleased.

About the only thing I would like to see inserted is a parry and dodge rule. That would make combats at higher level more epic. Let's face it, the PC's and Monsters end up having the ability to deal way more damage than they are able to avoid with high AC.

I would like to see skills open-ended with no class skills versus general skills. If you want t purchase a skill to make a certain type of character, then it shouldn't matter. For example, what if you don't want to make a ranger, you just want to make a stealthy fighter. There is no reason you have to pay more skill points to learn to hide or move silently. It should be no harder for a fighter to learn than for a ranger. The different emphasis should be put on the number of skill points to show differences rather than limiting class skills. The fighter gains 2 skill points because he focuses on weapon training, the ranger gains 4 (should be 6) for emphasizing skills.

In fact, I would like to see the ranger less specialized and more customizable. Get rid of the two weapon fighting, there is no real precedent for it. Let rangers who want to use Greatswords or other weapon customize characters with feats.

Stop trying to balance the game with metagame rules, and start to use codes and roleplaying reasons again. For example, give the Paladin some additional fighting feats. He is a holy warrior who spends almost all of his waking hours either fighting evil or training to fight evil. It is absolutely ludicrous to deny them additional combat feats whether or not it would imbalance them. They should be rebalanced with additional roleplaying type strictures such as adherence to religious and honor codes which prohibit the accumulation of personal wealth, choice of companions and actions during battle, just a with the old Paladin.

We shouldn't be seeing a new edition of D and D for a while, so I just make a bunch of house rules to improve the game. The biggest advantage of D and D is the amount of support. Most RPG games don't seem to have the same amount of supplementary material or variety of monsters to really help a DM make interesting adventures. Some people may have the time to build their own worlds and dungeons, but I prefer to have a structured module and setting to play in that makes my job as DM that much easier. D and D provides both.

 

[derverdammte]

I like D&D for what it is. Harn sounds great but I'm not going there. I did C&S, EotPT, RM, CoC, RQ. I never did T&T. I loved Traveller (bless you, Marc Miller). Shame about Ringworld...

Oing! I'm going to lose my gamer card. Lessee...

T&T = Tunnels and Trolls
RQ = RuneQuest
RM = Role Master
CoC= Call of Cthulhu

What are the other two? I'm stumped!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Oing! I'm going to lose my gamer card. Lessee...

T&T = Tunnels and Trolls
RQ = RuneQuest
RM = Role Master
CoC= Call of Cthulhu

What are the other two? I'm stumped!

Chivalry & Sorcery

Empire of the Petal Throne

 

[Mobius]

3rd edition is anything but half-assed. Its not evil or wrong to make money you know.

As to the first sentence...

There is putting countless hours of work into making a product a better product and putting countless hours of work into a product to make it a more popular product. I feel WotC has done the latter more than the former.

Hollywood spends millions of dollars on statistics, demographical studies and viewer feedback polls precisely because they want to create movies that appeal to the widest group of people. The result is very well researched and funded movies that make tons of money, but which are so far from what movies could be that it is laughable.

They aim for the masses and, as a a result, create a product for mass consumption, complete with painfully obvious foreshadowing so the morons don't get lost, 2D characters that the morons can identify with easily because they are charicatures, special effects that wow the morons so that they think they got their money's worth, beautiful but lousy actors/celebrities so the morons feel the togetherness of their star worship, etc. Art, this isn't, and precisely because they aimed for the money and not the cutting edge. As you can guess, I can't stand Hollywood movies either.

I am never surprised when companies choose to go this route with their products because that is the road where the money is made. I am, however, disappointed in their choice because it is only those who strive for a higher standard that ever create the art in the world.

Which leads me to your second sentence. No, making money isn't inherently bad, but I find it a pretty poor excuse for a goal in life. If you do what WotC has done - exert a lot of effort and money to make a mass market RPG - then the only legacy you walk away with is a lot of money and a product you know that is compromised to appeal to the masses.

Forgive me if I set my own personal standards a bit higher than this and that I reward people who feel the same way I do with my money.

So sure WotC is the evil empire go burn your D&D books.

WotC is not the evil empire and I never said they were. Sure, they may have a darker agenda for making the most mass-marketed RPG in the world (industry domination), but that makes them greedy, not evil.

Remember, too, that in the last part of my post, I offered to *sell* my 3e books...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

snipped a lot of stuff

But the question is: are you surprised that they wanted to make money? Were you unaware of that before you bought the books?

Also, the design team seemed very much like they were doing the revamp for love of the game. Sure they were getting paid, and sure they knew what was popular in the world of RPGs. So what if they looked at the market and said "what would the average gamer want?" Were they supposed to put on hair shirts and design a game for the RPG "intelligentsia" (whoever they might be?) The RPG industry was on a slow slide to oblivion when 3e came along. I don't think the 3e design team compromised the integrity of the game when they tried to create something that a lot of people would like. In fact, I'd say they strengthened that integrity.