Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...
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Kaptain_Kantrip
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Re: Re: Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...
#1: I don't have a problem with you expressing a pro-D&D/d20 opinion or disagreeing with mine... just with the way you presented it, which was inflammatory and uncalled for, especially considering the civil tone of the thread prior to your post. Of course, I've been guilty of making similarly offensive posts in the past, so I'll take yours with a grain of salt. The remarks you seem to take exception to were meant in a friendly, joking manner (hence the smilies). Perhaps you misinterpreted them as being something more provocative? Frankly, I had hoped for a friendlier discussion.
#2: d20, like GURPS, is supposed to be a universal system flexible enough to support different styles and settings (as evidenced by Call of Cthulhu d20, Wheel of Time, Fading Suns, and other settings). That's part of WoTC's marketing strategy, so why deny it?
The problem with trying to do this in a low fantasy setting are the unrealistic combat rules, the level based system of character development, and the magic system itself. Together, they present an insurmountable obstacle to using them outside a cinematic or high fantasy style of game, at least for me. And I tried like hell to make them work.
Psion said:
Don't look now, but I think you might be the one afraid of dissenting opinions...
But if you really aren't afraid of dissenting opinion, then you shouldn't have a problem with mine, eh?
So, since D&D doesn't fit what you want it to be, it's a "problem"? The system does what it is intended to do: high fantasy. That's not a problem. It's a strength. So don't sit here and spout that there are "problems" in the system because it doesn't fit your vision. The only problem here is you trying to use the wrong tool for the job. If it DID fit your vision, it would be a problem to me because it would be as dry as toast.
And it would also sell like HARN.
Just my dissenting opinion.
So if you want to play Harn, go have a blast. But don't advertise it as being due to some flaw in the system.
Thanks.
#1: I don't have a problem with you expressing a pro-D&D/d20 opinion or disagreeing with mine... just with the way you presented it, which was inflammatory and uncalled for, especially considering the civil tone of the thread prior to your post. Of course, I've been guilty of making similarly offensive posts in the past, so I'll take yours with a grain of salt. The remarks you seem to take exception to were meant in a friendly, joking manner (hence the smilies). Perhaps you misinterpreted them as being something more provocative? Frankly, I had hoped for a friendlier discussion.
#2: d20, like GURPS, is supposed to be a universal system flexible enough to support different styles and settings (as evidenced by Call of Cthulhu d20, Wheel of Time, Fading Suns, and other settings). That's part of WoTC's marketing strategy, so why deny it?
The problem with trying to do this in a low fantasy setting are the unrealistic combat rules, the level based system of character development, and the magic system itself. Together, they present an insurmountable obstacle to using them outside a cinematic or high fantasy style of game, at least for me. And I tried like hell to make them work.
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
EricNoah said:
Eric, if I've got your vote, that's good enough for me!
Seriously, I am deliriously happy with Harn and HarnMaster; happier than I ever was with D&D/d20 rules/settings (which were still loads of fun, don't get me wrong).
With Harn, I have a realistic, historically accurate medieval setting that makes sense and feels "real". Greyhawk, FR, Kalamar, etc., never did that for me, even if I did like some aspects of them.
With HarnMaster, I have a realistic character development and combat simulation system, that is as complex as I want to make it, a system where optional rules and house rules integrate smoothly with official ones.
At long last, I have achieved the elusive Gaming Nirvana ye spoke of!
And I ask, "what's wrong with that?" Whatever your game system or setting, have fun! But don't be afraid to try different things. I was, but I overcame my fears. Now I have a whole new setting and RPG to along with it. I am lucky in that I still game with the same group of people (plus or minus a couple) that I started with, so I didn't have that fear that I couldn't get anyone to play HarnMaster. In fact, I was surprised how quickly everyone agreed and then converted into Harniacs... I expected more resistance, LOL.
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jgbrowning
Hero
well
it seems strange you'd post on a d20 board about how the d20 system wasn't designed to do what you want it to do.
dunno, i mean really the d20 system doesn't help my wife cross-stitch, but it doesnt mean the d20 system is anymore unrealistic than anything else.
i mean, do you make your player's characters poopy everyday cause thats "realism".
bah, if you like playing Harn play on, its cool. but to compare d20 to Harn is like apples to a half-fiend/half celestial prarie dog.
personally the persuit of realism in fantasy is, well.. a bit off kilter.
joe b.
it seems strange you'd post on a d20 board about how the d20 system wasn't designed to do what you want it to do.
dunno, i mean really the d20 system doesn't help my wife cross-stitch, but it doesnt mean the d20 system is anymore unrealistic than anything else.
i mean, do you make your player's characters poopy everyday cause thats "realism".
bah, if you like playing Harn play on, its cool. but to compare d20 to Harn is like apples to a half-fiend/half celestial prarie dog.
personally the persuit of realism in fantasy is, well.. a bit off kilter.
joe b.
RangerWickett
Legend
Well, for those of us who don't know any better, how is Harn different? Does it not have levels?
I'm just not too picky when it comes to rules systems. If it's simple, and a lot of people are willing to play it, I'm game. If I primarily dislike high fantays gnomes, halflings, and dragons, I'd just get rid of them, and make up my own setting. If I dislike high magic, I'd cut out evocations. If I want grittier combat, I'd just describe it more grittily.
What does Harn do differently? I've only really played D20, Talislanta, and Mechwarrior. I tried GURPS, but I never got a game for more than one session at a time. Of the ones above, Talislanta was the most fun for me, but least fun for the power-gamers in my group, so I stick with D&D. Plus, I can write for money, and also use the stuff in my game. It's win/win.
I'm just not too picky when it comes to rules systems. If it's simple, and a lot of people are willing to play it, I'm game. If I primarily dislike high fantays gnomes, halflings, and dragons, I'd just get rid of them, and make up my own setting. If I dislike high magic, I'd cut out evocations. If I want grittier combat, I'd just describe it more grittily.
What does Harn do differently? I've only really played D20, Talislanta, and Mechwarrior. I tried GURPS, but I never got a game for more than one session at a time. Of the ones above, Talislanta was the most fun for me, but least fun for the power-gamers in my group, so I stick with D&D. Plus, I can write for money, and also use the stuff in my game. It's win/win.
If I'm happy with high fantasy but not with d20, do I get to post?
I think high fantasy is just a matter of taste, but I do believe that d20 is inherantly flawed. (*Waits for Psion to jump on my back.*)
My reasons: there are no rules for designing a prestige class, or how to design good feat progression. Furthermore, I feel that the core classes are balanced solely for the dungeon. If you take them out of such a limitted setting where they are allowed to kill 90% of what they encounter and put them in a game that is not continuous fighting, spellcasters will have a clear advantage due to versatility. We must find a way to make feats and skills more versatile! Still wouldn't help the monk though
I think high fantasy is just a matter of taste, but I do believe that d20 is inherantly flawed. (*Waits for Psion to jump on my back.*)
My reasons: there are no rules for designing a prestige class, or how to design good feat progression. Furthermore, I feel that the core classes are balanced solely for the dungeon. If you take them out of such a limitted setting where they are allowed to kill 90% of what they encounter and put them in a game that is not continuous fighting, spellcasters will have a clear advantage due to versatility. We must find a way to make feats and skills more versatile! Still wouldn't help the monk though
Tiefling
First Post
KK gets on my nerves when he talks about Harn, but you are being very unfair, Psion. The title of this thread says "D&D/d20." WotC and Ryan Dancey have advertised d20 as being a universal system. Therefore, KK is perfectly justified when he says that he doesn't think it handles realistic combat well.
My personal beef with D&D is the class system. I just don't like pushing characters towards an archetype. Levels annoy me too, but not nearly as much.
My beef with d20 isn't classes, since you can make a classless d20 game. Rather, I find the amount of randomness annoying. You'd think that a character with a 16 in Str would be much, much better at things like climbing than someone with a Str of 10. However, giving him a +3 bonus on a roll of a d20 means that he'll only succeed when the Str 10 guy doesn't a mere 3/20 times. Additionally, if the DC for climbing an unknotted rope is 15, the Str 16 guy with no ranks in Climb will only be able to climb it about half the time. Let's face it, either you can climb a rope or you can't. None of this "I couldn't climb it that time, but suddenly I figured it out! Hey, wait, now I can't climb it anymore... wait a minute, yes I can!"
My personal beef with D&D is the class system. I just don't like pushing characters towards an archetype. Levels annoy me too, but not nearly as much.
My beef with d20 isn't classes, since you can make a classless d20 game. Rather, I find the amount of randomness annoying. You'd think that a character with a 16 in Str would be much, much better at things like climbing than someone with a Str of 10. However, giving him a +3 bonus on a roll of a d20 means that he'll only succeed when the Str 10 guy doesn't a mere 3/20 times. Additionally, if the DC for climbing an unknotted rope is 15, the Str 16 guy with no ranks in Climb will only be able to climb it about half the time. Let's face it, either you can climb a rope or you can't. None of this "I couldn't climb it that time, but suddenly I figured it out! Hey, wait, now I can't climb it anymore... wait a minute, yes I can!"
Kaptain_Kantrip
First Post
RangerWickett said:
For those of you who don't know, Harn is easily the most detailed and historically accurate medieval fantasy RPG setting ever created. It was written in 1983 by N. Robin Crossby (the Gary Gygax of Canada, LOL), a medieval history preofessor. The world and its inhabitants all make sense, the level of historic and cultural detail is incredible. Harn is an island off the coast of Lythia, dominated by a handful of feudal (and feuding) kingdoms, guilds and religions. It is roughly equivalent to 12th century Britain in its economic, societal and technological standards. Harn is fantastic in that it takes care of all the background detail for creating a believable fantasy environment (thus freeing up the GM to work on his adventure plots without sweating the details that are missing from most settings). Harn is about realistic (non-uber) characters facing grim odds in a gritty medieval setting. Harn is magic rare (not magic weak) and treasure and monster rare as well. It is "low fantasy" but you can add more fantasy to it if you wish (it's much easier to add things than remove them) and the year in published products never changes, so you don't ever have to worry about published products conflicting with your campaign, unlike Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, as but two examples. Once you start, the world is entirely yours to do with as you will. Good and evil are reduced to shades of gray. Adventures in Harn are not about killing things and grabbing treasure so much as they are about moving toward the character's goals while facing moral quandaries. Oh, there's as much hack-n-slash as you could want, but the thing is, that combat is so deadly that only fools get into fights indiscriminately, especially when using the HarnMaster rules. Harn is rules independent, meaning you can use it with any RPG system. The HarnMaster rules were specifically designed to be used with the Harn setting, however.
HarnMaster is a skills-based FRPG. There are no levels, classes or other arbitrary archetypes. Instead, each character can be anything he or she wants to be, right from the start. The only restrictions on skills you can learn are practical ones (you can't learn how to swim without a body of water to practice in, for example, nor can you suddenly pick up a magic book and become a mighty wizard or priest---such things take many years to learn properly). HarnMaster has 12 ability scores: Strength, Stamina, Agility, Dexterity, Comeliness, Eyesight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Voice, Intelligence, Willpower and Aura (Charisma, but also refers to the potential for psychic or magical talent). Skill values are determined by taking the combined average of three governing ability scores (such as DEX DEX EYE for dagger) to get your Mastery Level (ML). Specific types of weapons provide a bonus to your ML when attacking or defending, giving you a variable EML (effective mastery level). Your ML increases with practice. You receive a discretionary number of SMPs (Skill Maintenance Points) each game month that passes to try to improve your skills. The higher your skill ML, the harder it is to improve (you must roll over its current ML to improve it each time by 1%).
HarnMaster combat is swift, deadly and as realistic a simulation as you could want. Attacker and Defender choose from a list of possible actions, roll success level against their opposed skills (d100) and then compare their results on the charts.
ATTACK:
You announce your target, which weapon(s) you will use, what aspect of the weapon you wish to use (blunt, edge, point, fire), and where you wish to aim your blow (high, mid, low). The defender is allowed to choose a defense option whenever he is aware of an attack. If the attacker or defender gets a better success than his opponent, he may win a tactical advantage (usually a free extra attack). If one or both fail their rolls badly, one or both may fumble (drop) their weapon or stumble (fall prone).
DEFENSE:
Armor reduces Impact (damage). Shields block attacks. Weapons parry (at the risk of breaking). Or, you can counterattack (try to strike the attacker first). You can also dodge. If you are unaware or incapable of defending yourself, you must choose the Ignore option (with predictably disastrous results).
HIT LOCATIONS, WOUNDS AND FATIGUE:
In HarnMaster, every possible location of the body can be targeted when a successful strike is landed. The attacker rolls d100 and consults the Hit Location Chart to see what spot he hits (skull, eyes, elbow, groin, foot, etc.)--modified by common sense, of course, and then rolls the number of damage dice allotted by the success of his attack (generally 1-4 d6) + the weapon's base damage. The defender's armor in the struck location is then consulted, and reduces damage accordingly. Each strikable body part has an armor rating, making mix-n-match armoring a wise choice for cash-poor would-be heroes, LOL. The damage number remaining (after armor reduction, if any) is then compared to the wound level chart (each body part has its own level of how easy it is to wound). Minor, Serious, Grievous (bleeders) and Kill (Fatal) Wounds are instantly possible with any successful strike. Anyone, no matter how skilled or powerful, can die at any moment at the hands of anyone (even a dirty peasant with a kitchen knife can slay the most famed knight in the realm if he gets lucky at the right moment, preferably when that knight is unaware and unarmored!).
Every wound level gained adds another d6 you must roll against your Endurance (the average of Strength, Stamina and Willpower--basically your Hit Points (though this term is never used in HarnMaster, and this is not a completely accurate comparison). Each Fatigue levels (accrued every minute of combat, which is roughly equal to six 10 second rounds) adds another d6 to the roll to stay conscious. If you roll equal to or under your Endurance, you stay conscious... otherwise, you're knocked out, possibly bleeding to death or comatose. There is no instant healing in HarnMaster; serious wounds can cause ability score loss if not treated by a competent physician; wounds can even become infected and require amputation! It can take weeks or months to recover from one bad battle, though this is usually reduced to a week or two with magical or psionic healing, or with a variety of healing herbs).
HOW HARNMASTER IS DIFFERENT:
Since there are no XP/levels to gain, there is often no reason to fight just for the sake of fighting. Smart players will pick their fights carefully or wind up dead. This has the advantageous effect of coercing players to find diplomatic (ROLE-PLAYING) or other creative solutions to their problems beyond using standard brute force. Brute force in HarnMaster is often the last resort, because of the dangers it holds for the attacker (just like real life, where kingdoms found it much cheaper to use diplomacy than open warfare). Still, there's plenty of people to gleefully chop up when reason or ingenuity fail, so don't get the idea that HarnMaster doesn't involve combat. It typically involves less combat than is typical for D&D or high fantasy games, but the combats it does offer are both hideously brutal and highly-memorable... Like the time the crossbowman shot the bandit leader through the nose with his crossbow! Or the time the archer shot a bandit through the mouth and neck before he hit the ground, forming a cute little wooden cross through his head, to serve as a makeshift grave marker, LOL!!! These are real results generated by the HarnMaster combat tables and made for dramatic, hysterical, pants-wetting fun for all involved.
My PCs are terrified of everything and everybody since we switched! They know all too well that any major mistake could be their last, hahaha, so they have become better players as a result. No taking for granted that you'll live through the night when playing HarnMaster, no sir! They now try to talk or scam their way through encounters before it even occurs to them to pull out their swords! But even after things come to blows, they are still talking and looking to scam their way out of the fight; in short, they react like normal people would if they were in the same situation: screaming, crying, pleading, shouting tactics, taunting, running away in blind terror, racing around furniture to keep their distance, etc. Despite the grittiness of the setting and game, the combats are highly cinematic--not in the "superheroic" sense of say Schwarzenegger, but in the sense that everyone can easily envision every nuance of the battle as if they were watching it in a movie... Harn and HarnMaster have really brought my game to life in a way that D&D/d20 never could.
That is why I am so happy with the switch. Harn works for me as both setting and system, hand in hand.
BTW: Harn products don't look all slick and cool like D&D, but they read much better. The difference is in the content. Psion said Harn is "dry as toast" but Harn is only as "dry" as you make it. I am inspired every time I crack open a Harn product. Adventuure seeds are everywhere! There are over a million words on Harn in print, plus hundreds of fan pages, all of excellent quality. Try http://swordsandshields.com and check out the incredibly detailed Harnic downloads available there for free. Many you can even use with d20 as adventure locations or for encounter ideas. The new Harn Encounters pdf there is 78 pages long, loaded with cool adventure ideas!
Harn has made me a better GM and has made my players better at roleplaying, too. That's why I keep coming back over here (where I started) and praising all things Harnic. If you had a great gaming experience, wouldn't you want to share it with others? I hope you would.
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DungeonKeeperUK
First Post
Ohhhh blimey, where to start on this thread... hehehe
Basically I love both d20/DnD and HARN for the fact they are totally opposite..
Been playing DnD for about 20something years in all in incarnations and HARN on and off for about the last 12 years or so..
Like I said above I love DnD for the High fanstasy the struggle to progress your character, even with its failings, but if ya don't like em change em, I've ran D&D in low fantasy and found no real problems at all......
HARN has a fantastic history and feel to it, you feel as if you are struggling adn worry everytime you get hit, it does have a much more realistic feel, and truth be told tried to convert 2 sets of players to HARN about 10 years ago, but they wouldn't move form D&D even after thoughly enjoying the game itself.. why.. ? Because they wanted to totally lose their selves in a game and D&D is so much easier in my opinion to do so if you wish..
Saying that I also tried to get them to play Twilight 2000, Space Opera, HoL, GURPS "Insert Setting Here", Vampire, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, RuneQuest, Paranoia, Tunnles & Trolls... you get the picture... and always it returned back to DnD.......
No system is going to be right for everyone and I think thats the point of the thread here, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with the d20 system it just don't suit everyone, Bert from down the street may well find the HARN system blummin awful, its all a matter of taste and thats what adds diversity to the RPG universe adn we all should be thankful for that guys...
Ohhh god I've waffled on and sent everyone to sleep now... I'll get me coat...
Mr T
Basically I love both d20/DnD and HARN for the fact they are totally opposite..
Been playing DnD for about 20something years in all in incarnations and HARN on and off for about the last 12 years or so..
Like I said above I love DnD for the High fanstasy the struggle to progress your character, even with its failings, but if ya don't like em change em, I've ran D&D in low fantasy and found no real problems at all......
HARN has a fantastic history and feel to it, you feel as if you are struggling adn worry everytime you get hit, it does have a much more realistic feel, and truth be told tried to convert 2 sets of players to HARN about 10 years ago, but they wouldn't move form D&D even after thoughly enjoying the game itself.. why.. ? Because they wanted to totally lose their selves in a game and D&D is so much easier in my opinion to do so if you wish..
Saying that I also tried to get them to play Twilight 2000, Space Opera, HoL, GURPS "Insert Setting Here", Vampire, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, RuneQuest, Paranoia, Tunnles & Trolls... you get the picture... and always it returned back to DnD.......
No system is going to be right for everyone and I think thats the point of the thread here, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with the d20 system it just don't suit everyone, Bert from down the street may well find the HARN system blummin awful, its all a matter of taste and thats what adds diversity to the RPG universe adn we all should be thankful for that guys...
Ohhh god I've waffled on and sent everyone to sleep now... I'll get me coat...
Mr T
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