Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Uh-oh! I remarked on the civility and friendliness of the posts and the thread went dead, LOL! Um... Lemme think a minute... wait, I got it!

HARN RULZ!

There... how's that? Not quite as eloquent as Erstwhile's hilarious post, but I'm in a hurry, so cut me some slack.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

HARN RULZ!

you son of a... err.. nevermind

Give it another couple of weeks and post this again- I am sure you will spark another fight/debate. *chuckle*

Oh, my opinion, I would give playing Harn a chance, but it does not sound like anything I would want to run.

FD

 

[Desdichado]

Last time we had this thread, it got really good when we started talking about ways to modify d20 to get a "Harn-like" (i.e. low magic and gritty) feel.

Hey, KK, as the self-proclaimed Harn-proclaimer, are there any Harnmaster mechanics that could be adopted to d20? That'd be an interesting direction for this discussion to go.

 

[Celebrim]

"My brother has had some training in fencing. Not all that much, just enough that I would classify his skill with a foil as equal to a 1st-level Fighter."

Are you sure? I'm not entirely sure that we can make comfortable comparisons between the real world and D&D like that. If you want to make more direct comparisons go to GURPS.

I've personally had about 60 hours of fencing instruction, including some at Penn State, which is one of the better fencing schools in the country. My observations of the sport are as follows:

1) Physical build and athleticism are more important than training. I'm a fairly wretched fencer, but against some fairly good women fencers I can hold my own simply because my form is good, my arms are long, and my reflexes are nearly as fast. Against a even adequate male fencer, there blade slides around mine as if mine were not moving.

GURPS by the way tends to support this with its rules set. D&D, quite famously, does not. For particularly funny spoofs of how D&D handles stats vs. experience read Terry Pratchett - particullarly the books featuring 'The Silver Horde'.

2) No one goes untouched in fencing versus even remotely capable competition. You may only score 1 point in 10, but you will hit a much better fencer from time to time.

Both D20 and GURPS model this fairly nicely.

We could probably model the combat between yourself and your brother much more accurately with GURPS than we could with D&D, sure. I used to play GURPS, and at one time I thought I would never play D&D again. (My DM has moved recently too GURPS after 11 years DMing D&D). But every system has its problems, and ultimately the rules overhead required to build and play a GURPS campaign in a way I found satisfying frustrated me. When 3 ed. came out it was alot like reading my house rules (only better written and more elegant) so I went back. The fact that D20 has limited randomness is a product of being a single dice system. If it went to a 3d6 system (like GURPS) you'd have those nice normal curves that remove certain kinds of randomness from the game. But then you quickly run into other problems, so I'm willing to make the trade off.

 

[Ace]

If I was going to run a Harn game, based on what I've been told of the setting I'd use GURPS.

That makes 2 of us. I played Harnmaster 1e once... once

It was not my cup of tea.
May I also add though that realism isn't all its cracked up to be. A great many players like big superheroic battles, silly monsters and scads of spells going off. Also worrying that some yamuk with a dagger will do in the charcter you spent the last five years playing isn't for everyone

That being said Harn is a pretty amazing gameworld I can recomend it.

The D20 version is pretty good too.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I've been using the HarnMaster Core (2nd Edition) rules, which are streamlined (LOL). I have HarnMaster 1st Edition but haven't run it as I got it after I'd already started using HarnMaster Core.

I can certainly appreciate the argument of those who prefer higher fantasy/less realistic games -- I've had a lot of fun with those, too. I'm just wanting something different after two decades of 95% D&D. It's not like I'd never play D&D again or anything, LOL. I may get sick of gritty realism at some point down the road, but probably not for several years at least... YMMV.

I'll dig up some Harn d20 links and post 'em later for Joshua Dyal and others who might be interested.

 

[Victim]

Maybe you should just mix things up more. If the only game I played was DnD - especially if I didn't have outside input, stuck in the same box - then I'd probably burn out on it after much less time than 20 years. Maybe you wouldn't get sick of gritty realism at all if you played game with other styles more often.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Good point, Victim.

Beyond D&D and 3e, I've also played in the past 20 years (complete with mini-opinions):

BEYOND THE SUPERNATURAL (fun)
CALL OF CTHULHU (fun but hated rules)
GANGBUSTERS (fun)
GAMMA WORLD (1st and 2nd Ed, both fun)
GURPS (Fantasy) fun but didn't understand rules
HEROES UNLIMITED: (fun)
THE MECHANOIDS (boring, stupid)
MORROW PROJECT (fun)
PALLADIUM FRPG (fun)
RECON (boring)
RIFTS (just plain wrong)
SHADOWRUN (1st Ed) fun but rules made no sense
STAR FRONTIERS (fun)
STAR WARS (WEG) fun
TOP SECRET (fun)
TOP SECRET/S.I. (fun)

Games I bought but never played:
DANGEROUS JOURNEYS (incomprehensible character creation/rules)
KULT (cool concept, rules too complicated)
SPYCRAFT (brilliant! scammed some rules for my D&D 3e game)
TORG (just plain wrong)
TWILIGHT 2000 (cool concept, incomprehensible character creation/rules)

Most of these diversions didn't last long, 3-6 months max. Fantasy is my first love, so nothing else lasts too long before I long to swing a sword on the field of valor again, LOL. The problem I've had is that there are not a lot of low fantasy settings or rules out there, and most don't appeal to me for one reason or another. So when I stumbled across Harn, then HarnMaster, I finally had a setting and rules set I wanted... hence, these posts overflowing with uber-joyful enthusiasm on my part!

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

As promised, here is a link to free d20 Harn goodies, including a complete conversion guide for running d20 games in Harn!
http://www.nine.addr.com/guides.htm

 

[LokiDR]

Right now, I am running a relatively average (read as high fantasy) D&D game, so Harn would have no immediate draw for me. When I want realism, I tend toward ShadowRun. The largest difference is in magic, with no spells like teleport, or commune. No matter how experienced a ShadowRun character is, a few good shots (from a character right out of generation) can take them down. And I have

If I really wanted a realistic game, I wouldn't go with d20. Maybe it is just me, but the HP, AC, and leveling mechanics all seem to unrealistic. Aren't those really core to d20? I suppose only the fact you roll a d20 for darn near everything makes it d20.

I once cought a friend who came out of "gaming realism" lecture presented by doctor of biomedical engineering, geek, and gamer, name Dr. Tritt. He apparently said, from his expert stand, that any decent shot that opens up your belly is fatal without magic or modern medicine. This made Sepiku (sp?) a perminent solution every time. Trust the japanse Is that the kind of realism people like?

If you do like this level of "gritty", do you really think that D20 can provide it? Maybe I should read the "grim and gritty" combat rules mentioned. Was that a link? I can guess what the "harnatics" might say. I see d20 as a quick and dirty RPG system. The more realistic you get, the more variables you need to take into effect, the more rules you need, the longer the game takes. Perfect realism would allow the possibility for any wound to become infected and ultimately fatal. Shaving was a very dangerous thing in days past Does harn go this far, could d20?

I guess I just don't get this realism thing. Via la Escapism.