Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[CapnZapp]

I thought I was following your rant until I got to that last bit I've quoted. I don't know what arthouse movies you're watching, but if I had to point to something trashy and indefensible I'd be pointing to a MCU film rather than an Almodovar film!

Lol - no complaints there!

However, for many (too many if you ask me) MCU represents an acceptable standard allowable in polite company, while old Italian giallo movies or maybe the recent Palme d'Or winner Titane, represents something literally unspeakable. Untouchable. Let's pretend it doesn't even exist. Approaching S&S from the pearl-clutching angle. (Double sigh)

I (obviously) haven't watched that particular movie (yet), but just from reading about it I am positive it represents what I was aiming for with my analogy. In other words, for me S&S includes - and worships - aspects your olde Forgotten Realmse never do. Even when written by and played by fully grown adults. Dismissing it as merely "juvenile" says more about the speaker than the source material.

Maybe I'm just reading from too many US pop-culture internet sites thou.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

If you don't care for inequality, and if you need equal opportunities for every concept of character - then just play in another genre. To me S&S is very much driven by testosterone, and trying to get rid of that is just throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Just to briefly key on this passage- if you are using the word testosterone to mean, well, a gestalt of action-oriented characters, I can understand that! On the other hand, if you are using it in the more specific definition, eh.

Look, I think that it would be a mistake to view the canonical characters in classic S&S as representing all that can be (Fafhrd, Grey Mouser, Conan, Elric)- simply because the vast majority of protagonists at the time were male.

I think that the image of the iconic posterior-kicking female character is firmly with us at this point, and we can easily see how it works. The dearth is just because there aren't really modern takes (and unfortunately, the Red Sonja movie was made in the '80s, so ...).

Arguably, the most recent Mad Max is just a genre-bending S&S, and Charlize Theron always kicks major posterior. See also, Atomic Blonde.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just to briefly key on this passage- if you are using the word testosterone to mean, well, a gestalt of action-oriented characters, I can understand that! On the other hand, if you are using it in the more specific definition, eh.

I'm having a discussion on the topic of how to distinguish S%S from other ttrpg genres, as well as making an effort of steering discussion away from "what's wrong with S&S" into "what's right about S&S".

Does that help?

 

[CapnZapp]

See also, Atomic Blonde.

If we're talking Theron movies I personally think The Old Guard is much more S&S than Atomic Blonde.

You don't have to be male to act like you've gotten an overdose of testosterone. Yes, Mad Max is very S&S. But not all action is S&S.

Furiosa is an iconic S&S character. A (wo)man of few words, very quick to "unthinking" action, complete with "helpless" brides to protect, covered in sweat and oil, on an exceedingly simple quest with a rather non-complex solution

I won't hold against her that she is far cleverer than the supposed protagonist of the movie

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm having a discussion on the topic of how to distinguish S%S from other ttrpg genres, as well as making an effort of steering discussion away from "what's wrong with S&S" into "what's right about S&S".

Does that help?

Kind of! I'd just note that, being a particularly big fan of S&S myself with a whole lot of posts devoted to the topic, I often find it more helpful to concentrate on some of the elements that are enjoyable, rather than a product of their time.

Put another way, if you start with the premise that S&S is only about unpuritan roleplaying (your words), it might seem that you're alienating a potentially large playing base.

I think S&S is for everyone!

 

[Aldarc]

I'm having a discussion on the topic of how to distinguish S%S from other ttrpg genres, as well as making an effort of steering discussion away from "what's wrong with S&S" into "what's right about S&S".

Does that help?

I don't think that saying that the S&S genre's reputation is less "transgressive" and more "juvenille" is a matter of what's wrong/right about S&S as it is simply accurately assessing its wider cultural reception. S&S came out of the same pulp magazine stories that had the reputation for being "run-of-the-mill, low-quality literature." Of course many of the great authors and stories of science fiction and fantasy came out of these pulp magazines, but the broader cultural reputation for much of this pulp fiction was still regarded as fairly low brow entertainment since these were cheap magazines that were targeted towards young males. I don't think it's somehow puritanical to recognize the target audience for what it was or imagine that these stories were not somehow written, in part, with that target audience in mind.

That said, I do agree with the idea of focusing on S&S's positives.

 

[CapnZapp]

Kind of! I'd just note that, being a particularly big fan of S&S myself with a whole lot of posts devoted to the topic, I often find it more helpful to concentrate on some of the elements that are enjoyable, rather than a product of their time.

Put another way, if you start with the premise that S&S is only about unpuritan roleplaying (your words), it might seem that you're alienating a potentially large playing base.

Put yet another way, how about you share the elements you enjoy, instead of just going back to that old chestnut of theorizing how various people can get alienated.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic; I'm just taking an opportunity to illustrate the point I made earlier.

Respectfully,
Zapp

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Put yet another way, how about you share the elements you enjoy, instead of just going back to that old chestnut of theorizing how various people can get alienated.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic; I'm just taking an opportunity to illustrate the point I made earlier.

Respectfully,
Zapp

In relation to my earlier posts:

1. S&S is gonzo. The Swords of Lankhmar, Elric.

2. S&S is gritty- civilization is usually corrupting and decaying. There are few, if any, rising powers- they are in decline.

3. Magic is dangerous, evil, or both. And if you have to depend on magic, it will get you in the end (ahem, Blackrazor).

4. S&S's morality can be ambiguous.

5. Cunning, wit, and strength carry the day.

 

[CapnZapp]

That said, I do agree with the idea of focusing on S&S's positives.

Thanks, but remember, my underlying impetus is to force us to confront the possibility it isn't S&S we really like.

Another way of saying this is that it can be easy to just crap all over what we don't like about S&S. But what is the alternative?

I have a hunch a lot of S&S' detractors can't define a genre that remains unmistakably S&S if they remove everything they profess to dislike.

But if they can't, isn't it better they realize it isn't S&S they like, and so go play in another genre?

Or at the very least admit to themselves they're not really into it for the constructive criticism. They just want to stop others from playing in a way they perceive as badwrongfun.

What I get frustrated by are people that simultaneously can't define the genre, can't explain what's left after everything bad has been cleaned out, yet give themselves permission to criticize what others like...

In short, no S&S probably can't be saved. Much better you move on and leave the wreck for us poor people that doesn't know better than to like objectively distasteful material...!

Saying I'm a S&S fan except... [insert pretty much everything that makes S&S recognizable and distinct here]... as if that's an useful take is what I see repeated over and over, and it is exhausting.

I offer a different take. Actually confessing S&S ---as it exists in the zeitgeist, not some theoretical ideal version--- has its allure seems to be an almost unique take around here... But how else did y'all become a fan of the genre!?!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But how else did y'all become a fan of the genre!?!

Um ... reading all the books that created the genre?

That's what got me. Well, that and playing OD&D and AD&D.