D&D 5E Discussing Worldbuilding: Why Don't The Mages Take Over The World?

[Baron Opal II]

1) You don't need to be high-level, I've been looking at around level 5

Yeah, no. Fifth level is certainly when someone comes into their own. But there is nothing special about a 5th level wizard that presumes some kind of significant advantage over other classes. Could they come into power? Certainly. Even maintain it with proper social conventions. But not with any greater likelyhood than other classes.

 

[Bluebell]

We have already established that one of the biggest things that created societies is access to food. Plant Growth, 3rd level spell, doubles food production. Another thing we established was access to water. Create or Destroy Water, 1st level spell. Also, what if rats get in the grain and spoil it, or a well is fouled? Purify Food and Drink, 1st level ritual.

Rulers must make important decisions that affect the lives of their people. Augury, 2nd level spell, gives a sign of Weal or Woe to an action you plan to take in the next 30 minutes.

Rulers must make judgements, trying criminals to find who is guilty and who is not. Zone of Truth, 2nd level spell.

Can you list another way to guarantee the cleansing of spoiled grain? That's a basic level 1 ritual. Take grain that is diseased and unfit for consumption, and purify it so that it can be eaten. Is there a non-magical way to do this presented in the rules?

I've always wondered about this from the opposite end: why isn't it more common in these settings for the average person to have access to these low-level spells that have niche use for an adventuring party but would be extremely useful for a farmer or peasant?

Sure, becoming a wizard requires both literacy and money, but Create or Destroy Water and Purify Food and Drink are accessible by level 1 clerics and druids. The village temple for the local favored god or the nearby druid circle could easily train the average person to have enough faith or harmony with nature to hit level 1. Most people probably never move beyond that because of the time and commitment required, but that first level isn't all that inaccessible.

Extrapolate that into positions that require more learning. Why aren't judges all low-level paladins or clerics for that Zone of Truth, or wizard for Detect Thoughts?

Which means, to me, the thread's question becomes a bit of a moot point. Sure, the majority of the ruling class is probably magic users. So is the majority of the lower class. The difference is once again the same as it always is: a matter of who has access to the most resources to actually maximize that power. The average peasant will simply never have the time or gold to become a level 20 wizard. But maybe the farmer's daughter down the way studied really hard to learn Plant Growth to make sure the local harvests always succeed.

 

[Voadam]

Extrapolate that into positions that require more learning. Why aren't judges all low-level paladins or clerics for that Zone of Truth, or wizard for Detect Thoughts?

This raises an independent world building issue, how much of the population are PC classes and spellcasting NPC monsters?

While any PC can choose to take any class and in many editions of D&D multiclassing for dip abilities is easy and open to many narrative options, this does not mean that is necessarily universally applicable to the non PC people in the D&D world the PCs are in.

Not every NPC farmer can choose to take sorcerer or cleric or druid levels instead of commoner.

How many spellcasters are in a D&D city is usually a bit vague and specifics are dependent on plot needs. The same thing for what power level NPC casters are.

How many spellcasters there are, of what power level, and what is necessary to become one is something that will vary greatly and would have a huge impact on this type of world building thought experiment.

 

[SkidAce]

I've always wondered about this from the opposite end: why isn't it more common in these settings for the average person to have access to these low-level spells that have niche use for an adventuring party but would be extremely useful for a farmer or peasant?

You would have to consider the source of magic itself to discuss this thought properly.

For example, most of my campaigns have the premise that magic isn't LEARNABLE, unless you already have the "SPARK".

If as you propose, it is merely a case of time and experience, then I think your thoughts are spot on...most campaigns would have many many minor magic users, much like many of us are minor shade tree mechanics, or carpenters.

 

[SkidAce]

This raises an independent world building issue, how much of the population are PC classes and spellcasting NPC monsters?

While any PC can choose to take any class and in many editions of D&D multiclassing for dip abilities is easy and open to many narrative options, this does not mean that is necessarily universally applicable to the non PC people in the D&D world the PCs are in.

Not every NPC farmer can choose to take sorcerer or cleric or druid levels instead of commoner.

How many spellcasters are in a D&D city is usually a bit vague and specifics are dependent on plot needs. The same thing for what power level NPC casters are.

How many spellcasters there are, of what power level, and what is necessary to become one is something that will vary greatly and would have a huge impact on this type of world building thought experiment.

I think @Voadam beat me to the point, and said it better.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I've always wondered about this from the opposite end: why isn't it more common in these settings for the average person to have access to these low-level spells that have niche use for an adventuring party but would be extremely useful for a farmer or peasant?

Sure, becoming a wizard requires both literacy and money, but Create or Destroy Water and Purify Food and Drink are accessible by level 1 clerics and druids. The village temple for the local favored god or the nearby druid circle could easily train the average person to have enough faith or harmony with nature to hit level 1. Most people probably never move beyond that because of the time and commitment required, but that first level isn't all that inaccessible.

Extrapolate that into positions that require more learning. Why aren't judges all low-level paladins or clerics for that Zone of Truth, or wizard for Detect Thoughts?

Which means, to me, the thread's question becomes a bit of a moot point. Sure, the majority of the ruling class is probably magic users. So is the majority of the lower class. The difference is once again the same as it always is: a matter of who has access to the most resources to actually maximize that power. The average peasant will simply never have the time or gold to become a level 20 wizard. But maybe the farmer's daughter down the way studied really hard to learn Plant Growth to make sure the local harvests always succeed.

There's nothing wrong with a high magic world like the one you describe.

That said, IMCs the potential to become a "classed" character is more along the lines of having the potential to become a professional athlete in the real world. Not everyone has that potential to begin with and, moreover, not everyone with that potential will realize it.

So your typical farmer's daughter could devote herself in mind, body, and soul to a temple but never call forth a single miracle. She could study dusty arcane tomes all her days and yet fail to muster the simplest of cantrips.

Just because a talented professional can make something look easy, doesn't mean it is.

 

[Voadam]

I also think from a world building perspective in a high magic world it is more likely that there will be things like an elven plant singer NPC role with specific crop magic rather than clerical create water and druid plant growth spells as the magical drivers of the non-adventuring stuff. While adventuring magic with some non adventuring uses could be the only magic of the world and you can build interesting worlds around that base, it is reasonable that the PH only shows the magic options most applicable to adventuring PCs and there is room for a lot of non-adventuring magic in a fleshed out high magic D&D type world.

 

[Ixal]

Yeah, no. Fifth level is certainly when someone comes into their own. But there is nothing special about a 5th level wizard that presumes some kind of significant advantage over other classes. Could they come into power? Certainly. Even maintain it with proper social conventions. But not with any greater likelyhood than other classes.

I disagree.
Nobility everywhere eventually sought to distance themselves from common people as an explanation why they ought to rule. Often in the form of divine mandate or actual divinity or other mythical heritage.

In D&D thus would mean the fantasy chinese emperor would really be related to a dragon instead of just claiming it to be.

All other nobles who do not have a heritage like this would need other things to elevate them over common people.
And spellcasting is a reliable way to do it.
Its much easier to explain why you have a born right lead and others should serve you when the only times the common people see you is when you perform superhuman feats like flying above them in a processions or heal the wounds of anyone brought before you on the first sunday of the month with a mere touch.

Compared to that, why should the people serve a normal person just because he was born a prince when, from their point of view, there is a race of superhumans out there or people directly blessed by the gods?

And the more nobles use their superhuman abilities (spellcasting) as legitimization to rule the more pressured the other nobles become to also learn spellcasting to not appear unworthy of ruling.
So instead of teaching their heirs how to ride and wield a lance they teach them how to cast spells.
And in a few generation most if not all nobles will be spellcasters and, assuming the world is made up out of kingdoms, spellcasters will rule the world.

 

[Oofta]

I also think from a world building perspective in a high magic world it is more likely that there will be things like an elven plant singer NPC role with specific crop magic rather than clerical create water and druid plant growth spells as the magical drivers of the non-adventuring stuff. While adventuring magic with some non adventuring uses could be the only magic of the world and you can build interesting worlds around that base, it is reasonable that the PH only shows the magic options most applicable to adventuring PCs and there is room for a lot of non-adventuring magic in a fleshed out high magic D&D type world.

That's pretty much what I do. Some people may not even realize they're using magic, but the blacksmith knows that if he sprinkles in the right powder at the right time and chants a song to the metal, the metal is stronger and rust resistant. The local healer has poultices that work similar to antibiotics. The milk maid hums a tune and the milk stays fresh longer, the Keeblers really do make magically delicious cookies to dip into that milk and so on. The PC classes are the soldiers of the world with specialized training and equipment that people that are not on the front lines don't need.

It even permeates basic biology which is why people heal up so quickly, even if they don't realize that there's anything unusual.

 

[Seramus]

Who said that mages were necessarily more intelligent than anyone else? Sure, Wizards/Artificers might be, but there are probably a bunch of idiotic power-hungry elven bards out there that want to take over everything with magical bagpipes!

It has already begun!