D&D 5E Discussing Worldbuilding: Why Don't The Mages Take Over The World?

[Fanaelialae]

That does make complete sense, and I can see how that would act as a hard limiter on magic in the world, particularly wizards (requiring both innate ability AND wealth). And depending on how rare you decide to make that spark, I feel like this question kind of answers itself: if magic is mostly hereditary, then yeah, it's probably a common element among the ruling class and therefore your world leaders are almost certainly going to be casters. On the other hand, if that "spark" is so rare as to be extremely uncommon, then there might not be enough magic users to really consider them a social class, and it would be hard to maintain generational power if family lines can't reliably inherit the ability.

To me, magic is so variable between the classes in terms of the source that the individual is drawing from that it makes more sense that some types of magic are accessible to the average person and others aren't. Clerics and paladins gain their magic from their belief -- and sure, for many, that belief will never translate into functional magic -- but why shouldn't someone with intense belief in their god be able to pray and meditate long enough to tap into a couple cantrips and a low-level spell?

There are other kinds of magic that explicitly come from one's birth -- sorcerers, of course, but also certain races such as genasi have their own innate spells. I prefer to draw a contrast between those innate kinds of magic and ones that come from other sources.

That's a good point, it makes sense that NPCs simply don't work the way that PCs do. I'm really just using the classes as a basis point in this discussion since that's sort of the agreed-upon canon that we can look to.

If that's the direction that you want to explore in your world building then go for it!

That said, there are any number of reasons why someone with strong faith might not be granted clerical magic.

Maybe the gods want to limit how their power is used. Tim the farmer might be very faithful to the goddess of agriculture. However, does the goddess want to risk granting him the power to smite his neighbor in a fit of anger? She might only entrust her power to those she believes will use it responsibly. Faith =/= responsibility.

Maybe the gods have a limit on the power they can grant. Sure, the agricultural goddess could grant every farmer in the world the ability to cast create water, but that would leave her vulnerable to the god of corruption (who has chosen to be far greedier with his power).

Maybe there's a balance to the multiverse that an excess of magic could disrupt. A thousand active clerics casting Create Water on occasion doesn't significantly harm the cosmic balance. However, a million farmers casting Create Water every day would draw too much of the Elemental Plane of Water into the Prime Material, resulting in a catastrophic imbalance that would reverberate across the planes.

And, of course, maybe there's an inherent quality to some individuals that make them more receptive to divine power than others, not unlike how some people naturally have excellent vision while others may have very poor sight (or even suffer blindness). John the Cleric might have been able to tap into the goddess's power after only a few years of training. Whereas Tim the Farmer, despite having just as strong a faith as John, would have to train at the temple for several decades before he could do the same.

Even for sorcerers, just because you have power in your blood doesn't mean you have a meaningful amount. Maybe your sorcerous heritage gives you just enough magic to spray a harmless shower of sparks from your fingertips, and that's the extent of what magic you'll ever accomplish.

 

[MGibster]

That's the magical world a lot of people hate. Magic everywhere like technology in real world.

It's like an episode of the Flintstones to me. I half expect someone in Eberron to open the cabinent under the sink to check the garbage disposal and find an otyugh under there looking at the audience saying, "It's a living."

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, no. Fifth level is certainly when someone comes into their own. But there is nothing special about a 5th level wizard that presumes some kind of significant advantage over other classes. Could they come into power? Certainly. Even maintain it with proper social conventions. But not with any greater likelyhood than other classes.

Right, so how is the Fighter doubling crop yields? How is he purifying the fouled wells? Can the fighter magically predict the outcome of signing a treaty before signing it?

How are these not significant advantages?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've always wondered about this from the opposite end: why isn't it more common in these settings for the average person to have access to these low-level spells that have niche use for an adventuring party but would be extremely useful for a farmer or peasant?

Sure, becoming a wizard requires both literacy and money, but Create or Destroy Water and Purify Food and Drink are accessible by level 1 clerics and druids. The village temple for the local favored god or the nearby druid circle could easily train the average person to have enough faith or harmony with nature to hit level 1. Most people probably never move beyond that because of the time and commitment required, but that first level isn't all that inaccessible.

Extrapolate that into positions that require more learning. Why aren't judges all low-level paladins or clerics for that Zone of Truth, or wizard for Detect Thoughts?

Which means, to me, the thread's question becomes a bit of a moot point. Sure, the majority of the ruling class is probably magic users. So is the majority of the lower class. The difference is once again the same as it always is: a matter of who has access to the most resources to actually maximize that power. The average peasant will simply never have the time or gold to become a level 20 wizard. But maybe the farmer's daughter down the way studied really hard to learn Plant Growth to make sure the local harvests always succeed.

Exactly this

 

[Chaosmancer]

One trying to get mages to share is like herding cats.
Two gods are actually there and can interfere, so no t going to take over churches. Not for long anyway.
Two cross a mage die. Cross a cleric burn in hell for all eternity.

Three easy to kill a mage who has to carry out rulership duties. Stay in your sanctum and your virtually invulnerable.

But that aside, my question is why don't scientists rule the world? Because they'd rather do science.
Most mages would rather do magic.

So since clerics prevent wizards from becoming nobles, and crossing a cleric means burning in hell for all eternity, why don't clerics rule? Clerics are also far harder to kill than wizards.

 

[Baron Opal II]

I disagree.
Nobility everywhere eventually sought to distance themselves from common people as an explanation why they ought to rule. Often in the form of divine mandate or actual divinity or other mythical heritage.

Right, so how is the Fighter doubling crop yields? How is he purifying the fouled wells? Can the fighter magically predict the outcome of signing a treaty before signing it?

How are these not significant advantages?

Oh, you mistake me.

It's not that they can't woo the populace or roast an opponent. It's that a 5th level wizard is very fragile and easily stab-able. Yeah, they have their supporters, but so does everyone else.

If we are going to talk about the inevitability of magocracies, theocracies, whatever, we need to talk 12th level or so. If we're positing that everyone wants power, for good or ill, you have to take into account assassination. 5th level, for anybody, wizard or no, doesn't give you a lock on the throne.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Right, so how is the Fighter doubling crop yields? How is he purifying the fouled wells? Can the fighter magically predict the outcome of signing a treaty before signing it?

This is why we need Science and Alchemy.

Some fertilizer, fluoride and a few Poly-Sci majors go a long way.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

@Chaosmancer Because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment...

How many years does it take to become a practicing Wizard? To go from "I literally only know how to read and write" to "I'm a 5th level Wizard," given that's your stated target. Keep in mind, we're talking about people who aren't adventurers, so they aren't delving into murder-holes and sparring with bus-sized lizards with superiority complexes and epic halitosis.

How long does it take?

 

[TwoSix]

That's the magical world a lot of people hate. Magic everywhere like technology in real world.
It's how my campaign world runs. The thing I like about magic being everywhere and used by the populace as well as PC's, is it just makes mages one more character. It also allows for powerful groups that may not like wizard shaking reality too hard.

Yea, I know a lot of people favor the crapsack world with rare, creepy magic (a la Game of Thrones), but that just doesn't feel very D&D to me. Eberron is the closest fit to what I feel a standard D&D world (if there was such a thing) would look like.

 

[TwoSix]

It's like an episode of the Flintstones to me. I half expect someone in Eberron to open the cabinent under the sink to check the garbage disposal and find an otyugh under there looking at the audience saying, "It's a living."

<files that away for later use>

I think that just highlights how different the expectations of a setting can be even when playing "standard" D&D. To me, a game setting where no one had thought to use magical creatures for infrastructure would wreck any sense of verisimilitude.