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D&D 4E Discussion about a Primer on 4e terminology

The same thing goes with all these 4th edition terms - you wouldn't end up with pages and pages of semantic debates about Roles, if you didn't have them in the first place. As much as anything else, they will always provoke argument - so how useful are they really?
Why would you think this would somehow miraculously disappear if there were no roles? Did you miss the pages and pages of semantic debates on 3e terms that were on these forums? What good are any terms then if they are all just going to provoke argument? ;)
 

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Why would you think this would somehow miraculously disappear if there were no roles? Did you miss the pages and pages of semantic debates on 3e terms that were on these forums? What good are any terms then if they are all just going to provoke argument? ;)

No. I probably wasn't hanging out on these forums back then (at the time 4E was coming out I was much more interested in playing Traveller back then).

I am well aware of lots of debates that have circled the terminology and 'realism' of D&D right from the very early days. It's why games like RuneQuest and the like were created to deal with some of these percieved faults.

Yet D&D always remained comfortably the most popular game (with a slight blip to Vampire in the 90s, perhaps) despite it's quirkiness, up until recently. I think a lot of this had to do with familiarity, it's generic-ness and the essential simplicity of abstract systems like Hit Points, or Armour Class, or Experience Points, or the Vancian magic system.

However, if you start over-defining things, like I say, you detract from the essential abstract nature of these systems.
 
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The same thing goes with all these 4th edition terms - you wouldn't end up with pages and pages of semantic debates about Roles, if you didn't have them in the first place. As much as anything else, they will always provoke argument - so how useful are they really?

I can honestly say that no argument of the kind has ever cropped up in one of my games. In fact, the last time I had an argument about any kind of semantics during a game, I was still in high school and WoTC may not have even purchased TSR, yet.

As for how useful roles are...

Tremendously. From the DM's side of the table, they cut prep time down an unbelievable amount. From the PCs' side...eh. They have their role in helping build an effective party--and helping the DM prepare encounters to challenge them--but they could be a bit less rigid (as, in the case of the Heroes of the Feywild's Barbarian, they have begun to become).
 

Well this is anecdotal again. I'm glad that you've had good gaming sessions where these things haven't been issues for you - but it's totally clear that other gamers have issues with Roles, as we see quite clearly on this very thread and forum. You can't just deny that these arguments have been occuring.
 

It seems to me that the whole Roles argument simply boils down to the difference between "Don't pigeonhole me," and, "Tell me what I'm good at." I don't think the differences are insurmountable.
 

The issue of hit points reminds me of the time Gygax was asked about them, and his response was along the lines of: if you have a fighter with 100 HP, and he is whittled down round by round from arrows, the fighter isn't just walking around with 25-30 arrows sticking out of him until one eventually shaves off that last HP. No, he only takes one arrow, the one that drops him below 1.

There is a thread recently wher M. Cook used the term "lurker" and there was twenty or more posts here debating his meaning of the term. Was it the actual creature named the lurker (aptly named) or was it an "ambusher?"
Had it not been called lurker, but instead ambusher, then you'd get arguments that "Well does that mean that you can only use them in ambushes? So you're limiting how it can be used? So what happens if they're not in an ambush situation - does the monster cease to be?" and so on.

Regardless of what word was chosen, someone would have had an issue with it. For example, why do we call the fighter a "Fighter" when all classes fight, and they fight with the same frequency as the Fighter? And most melee classes are just as competent as the fighter. How about the barbarian - that denotes a certain cultural expectation, and it has quite the negative connotation! The class implies that a character must be a primitive - can't you have someone in the barbarian class from a city? And don't even get me started on Thief or Rogue!

The "Leader" role is basically "support". They buff. They grant extra attacks. They heal. Essentially it's maximizing the potential of other characters. But calling the role "Support" would have been a bitter pill to swallow; most people don't like it implied they're a side-kick. "Leader" is more positive a word than "Support", and they are trying to entice people to play leaders because in all previous editiosn D&D, someone has always had to play the healer.

Saying "why do we have to have roles spelled out at all" is like saying "why do we have to spell out classes at all". Those roles have always been implicit. Thieves just don't stand in the front lines (well they can, but they don't live long when they do). Fighters just don't buff. The only difference is that 4e pulled back the curtain and drew it into the light, designing classes to focus on what they've always done (and how most people have played them). I've been hearing "we need a tank" as far back as the 3e days.

Role is also a way to simply categorize mechanics. Look at 3e. There you had classes that received a +1 to BAB every level (fighter, barb, ranger, paladin). You had those that received a +1 every other level (Wizards, etc) and those that were somewhere in between, with a BAB progression behind melee classes but not as bad as wizards (rogues, clerics). That sounds like a systematic method of their mechanics. If those groups had received a name, then that would be similar to categorizing them in roles based on mechanics. With 4e classes, roles have predictable HP /Healing Surge/Armor proficiency expectations.
 
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I'll take a stab at clarifying something:

Power: A power is simply any sort of resource or ability that a class gains which is not a class feature. To use some 3e examples of a power, a barbarian's rage, bard's song, a cleric's turn undead, druid's shapechange, or paladin's lay on hands/remove disease (all of which were x per day). Compare to class feature like sneak attack, animal companion/familiar, favorite enemy, or flat +1 to x or y. Class features typically have less parameters that they work around and less rules when they can be used, etc - they're just simpler.

Replace Power with Ability and you get the same thing.
 

Well this is anecdotal again. I'm glad that you've had good gaming sessions where these things haven't been issues for you - but it's totally clear that other gamers have issues with Roles, as we see quite clearly on this very thread and forum. You can't just deny that these arguments have been occuring.

If these arguments have been occurring at the game-table, I would suspect that they are hardly the only arguments at the table and, further, that they are indicative of a bigger problem. In other words, my guess is that semantics arguments symptomatic of more fundamental issues with the player dynamic.

If, on the other hand, these arguments are not happening at the table, but, rather, on the interwebs, well, that just doesn't matter, at all.
 



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