Discussion for a Kingdom of ashes OOC II

[The_Universe]

Heh. I apologize if it came off a little harsher than I intended, just a little frustration with seeing everyone come up with these plans and then having every one taken to task for being risky. So no harm intended, just a little frustration.

No blood, no foul.

As for swiping a ship, the chief danger I (through any one of a number of NPCs) see is not in perception of you guys having an evil ship (although that shouldn't be ignored). Instead, trying to keep your proof in any harbor at all seems dangerous--they dominate the seas, so to protect your proof, and preserve it for future viewing, you probably need to bring it inland as far as is possible (maybe even to New Oceanus). This removes the possibility of the Draconids burning down a friendly harbor just to get it, and allows you to bring potential allies to see the proof at your leisure. It also removed the possibility of an over-eager harbor official trying to sink the ship as an evil scary dragon ship sails into his port! Lastly, it makes it (and you) harder to track. Cut the masts and hide it in the forest--they'll never find the thing.

However, getting it off the seas means your burgeoning navy is still stunted. But, no reason you couldn't steal another one...or two....or ten...

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Heh. I apologize if it came off a little harsher than I intended, just a little frustration with seeing everyone come up with these plans and then having every one taken to task for being risky. So no harm intended, just a little frustration.

It's not that getting the ship is too risky-- I think we NEED to get the ship-- I'm just trying to get all of the consequences out there.

Taking the ship is an excellent idea. However, what we do with the ship after we have it can have positive or negative effects and affects for the group...

Sailing it into another port seems to have the most obvious potential for really negative impacts and the possible loss of the ship.

Some risks are necessary... we all know that-- if we didn't, we wouldn't even be talking about GETTING the ship. However, some risks are outright ridiculous and should be avoided at all costs.
Sailing the ship into the closest port seems to be one of those risks.

 

[The_Universe]

A general note/rule:

Criticising an idea is fine, especially if it's bad. But, doing so is not worth much if you don't present an alternative. So, regardless of whether or not sailing a ship into a harbor is good or bad, unless you have another way to do it, don't complain. Above, I presented an alternate idea. If you don't like the forming plan, don't beyatch unless you have an idea that is at least as good. This goes for everyone.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

A general note/rule:

Criticising an idea is fine, especially if it's bad. But, doing so is not worth much if you don't present an alternative. So, regardless of whether or not sailing a ship into a harbor is good or bad, unless you have another way to do it, don't complain. Above, I presented an alternate idea. If you don't like the forming plan, don't beyatch unless you have an idea that is at least as good. This goes for everyone.

It is, without a doubt, a better idea to expend our man-power to pull the ship than it is to try to sail it into another port...

That would be my alternate plan.

 

[AIM-54]

I don't think the port plan is as bad as you're making it sound. It's a tremendous recruiting opportunity.
That said, if it's a risk we don't want to take right now, that's fine. The other variants of the overall plan are fine. I'm not sure how valuable a ship on land is, other than proof that we took the cannons from that ship and not somewhere else...
But I still think we shouldn't underestimate the positive affects we could generate by giving the people as yet mostly unaffected the chance to see a victory against the draconids.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

3) How the hell are we supposed to obtain an army that can liberate Oceanus without openly announcing ourselves and proving that we have the capability, with a little help, to kick those draconic bastards out? Stealing the ship, with incriminating evidence regarding the King's involvement and then announcing our presence (sailing into the harbor with the Phoenix Banner flying perhaps) is a great way to show that not only are we in the right, but we can give the enemy what-for. (heh heh, now I'm british ) We're not going to recruit just by hoping word of mouth makes people want to join us.

4) We have eloquent characters precisely so we don't say stupid things like your example there. The trick is to play down the King's outlawing of us and play up our role as the heros of Oceanus.

5) It doesn't matter if we keep the ship or not. We just have to keep it away from the draconids. The cannons and ammunition are important. We can ceremoniously burn it in effigy of the draconic armies, as a sign of our goodwill or unceremoniously scuttle it, either way. But going through the port gives does more for us than secretly scuttling it alone, down the coast from Oceanus. Granted, there are some risks, but that is the path we have chosen.

6) Not doing something because it will give us negative modifiers to diplomacy checks has to be among the worst rationales for action/inaction I have ever heard.

7) All this fruitless planning is driving me nuts. I want action, heroism, dead bad guys, knifed hobos, the works!! Let's throw caution to the winds, take a chance, have some fun. If it doesn't work and we all die...it is just a game after all. And Kennon has the beginnings of his "Midnight" setting

I agree with everything you're saying... just trying to make sure that all the consequences are understood, Jeremiah.

As for #3,
I am, in no way, saying that we need to hide our rebellion. If you'll remember, I was one of the first to say we need to be open about it. In the same vein, you cannot do stupid things simply because we are an open rebellion. I agree that getting the cannons is a GREAT idea. No one is disputing that-- we all want to do it-- however, we need to decided what we're going to to ONCE we get it.

#4 and #6 tie into each other...
The diplomacy check is nothing if we LOOK like the bad guys. Actions do speak louder than words. These people are terrified. If we show up with one of the bad guys boats, we are bringing the very negative planning down upon ourselves.

#7
Yes! I'm sick of it, too! I have been for DAYS! But, we cannot make a plan without analyzing the negative affects. We ARE taking risks but, trying to avoid ones that would mean the destruction of our rebellion. In that light, it is not at all fruitless... the fruit of our planning is understanding all that could come from the plan.
Too often our group focuses on the good that could come from something and lets that over-shadown the bad. And then what happens? The bad stuff that we never really gave any thought to at all.

The ship is a fabulous idea. We need it. We need the cannons on it. I think we all know this...

I'm just trying to let everyone know what could happen if we were to simply sail it into a neighboring port like Jeremiah suggested earlier.
It would be a much better idea to lug it across the land...

 

[Xath]

I got a slight chance to read.

So, I actually had a little bit of time to read recently and I once again picked up Anne McCaffery's Freedom's Landing series. And what do you know? It's about a group of rebels forced to rebuild their homes in a knew area after having been forced from their homes by a strang alien force. And so...they rebuild, then rebel to get their home back. How do they do this? They start off by stealing ships. Granted these are space ships but there are certain rules which apply in any situation.

1. Ships in dock are not manned by a full crew. They usually have 2 guards so that one can be on duty at all time.

2. Ship guards are not the brightest people in the world. If they were smarter, they would be on shore leave with the rest of the crew, and not stuck on board.

3. Lots + Alcohol + Ship Guard = New ship for us. You could even add a sleep inducer into the mix. Occasionially, guards from other ships go "visiting" with booze. It's a fun party time.

4. Sleeping guards don't have a say when their ship is being stolen.

Getting the ship out of the harbour, and sailing it elsewhere is another issue. Busy ports don't check ID's as carefully, but I don't know what the ship traffic is around Oceanus. But once the guards are asleep/dead, the ship is fairly easy to take.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

I don't think the port plan is as bad as you're making it sound. It's a tremendous recruiting opportunity.
That said, if it's a risk we don't want to take right now, that's fine. The other variants of the overall plan are fine. I'm not sure how valuable a ship on land is, other than proof that we took the cannons from that ship and not somewhere else...
But I still think we shouldn't underestimate the positive affects we could generate by giving the people as yet mostly unaffected the chance to see a victory against the draconids.

I've hashed through it with Kennon all day-- and, realistically, it is not the best idea. Getting the cannons, having Xath compose and sing/perform is a much better idea. At that point, we travel with the cannon and spread the "gospel" of the phoenix.

Pushing the ship on a city:
1. Puts the draconids on our trail
2. Opens us up for questioning/skepticism
3. Could lead to the sinking of the ship, cannons, crew, and all.

I think that taking it over land is the best idea...

or, whatever, leave the ship... pull it up by the shore, unload the cannons and just drag the cannons back to Hyrwl! Screw the ship! We don't really NEED the ship for anything unless Seaborne desperately wants it...

 

[Archon]

*nods*

 

[Archon]

i don't know about you guys but the guy who quit "book learnin'" a long time ago is getting dizzy from all the great posts and i just want to lay out a simple frame in which to plan(please adjust if nessessary).
one/a few of us can just walk in find out the information we need through deception, then we the heroes can make major strikes against the most powerfull foes leaving the "cannon fodder" without guidance. then we march on Oceanus with an army and clear them out.
you guys know i'm not very good at the whole detailed planning thing. complicated plans have a knack of running afoul. i say the simpler the better. but no matter what someone has to decide on ONE course of action and stick to it. you're all comming up with great stuff and i feel humbled by your collective ability to plan. i'm feeling a bit lost though. i don't know what we're actually going to do. we need decisions to be made. someone has to say "ok, these are all our possibilities, these are all our contigencies and this is our order of objectives. in short, this is what we're going to do" so we can walk in on saturday with a pretty good idea about whats going down.
i'm not trying to rush a decision or bully everyone into doing something they don't like. i just want to know, "can we make a decision?" if we can't, what else do we need to know.
you guys rock and i know no matter what we decide we can make it work.
with "mad props"
mik aka "the guy who quit "book learnin'" a long time ago"