Disdain for new fantasy

[Clavis]

I wonder how many people are setting up a false dichotomy with regard to anime and D&D. The whole conversation isn't necessarily between the camps of "I love anime and what more of that style of action and D&D" and "I hate anime and keep anything to do with it away from D&D". How about the camp that generally likes Japanese animation, and yet still thinks that its aesthetic doesn't really make a good fit with D&D? By way of a metaphor, I love curry, but that doesn't mean I think curry ice-cream is a good idea.

I also think that anime must not be confused with modern fantasy. I would argue that the most important modern fantasists are J.K. Rowling and Neil Gaiman, not any particular Japenese anime.

 

[Nifft]

I wonder how many people are setting up a false dichotomy with regard to anime and D&D.

All the ones who aren't having fun.

Many folks here seem to know enough about anime to recognize that the base argument ("4e is too anime!") is fallacious.

However, like the previous strawman ("3e is too video game!"), there's a baby / bathwater situation, because both video games and anime are contemporary entertainment media, and probably have a lot to offer contemporary audiences. We mine fiction and movies for ideas all the time, why not mine video games and anime?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I would argue that the most important modern fantasists are J.K. Rowling and Neil Gaiman, not any particular Japenese anime.

How would you possibly argue that? Gaiman is a genius who has contributed a significant amount to the fantasy genre, so yeah, completely with you there, Rowling, on the other hand, is an ignoramus regarding fantasy as a genre (literally, her conception of fantasy begins and ends with The Lord of the Rings - Practically from her own admission), and whilst her fantasy series was popular, she has both denied it is fantasy, and then later, claimed she's "revolutionized the genre", when in fact what she's writing is functionally identical to stuff written decades before, none of which was hailed as revolutionary (the "Worst Witch" books, for example). That she is popular does not mean she is "important" to a genre, especially when she's outright denied being part of that genre and denounced the genre on the basis of her own stolid ignorance.

However, you are right to question whether "anime" and "WoW" have anything to do with "new fantasy". They do not. Anime is a style of animation and art, and to some degree, stereotypical plots. Much of it is sci-fi or "weird" or even "day-to-day", and whilst it engages with fantasies, frequently, only a certain subsection could be termed "fantasy". Similarly, WoW is not "new fantasy", it's just extremely dervative "old fantasy" put in a pink dress and some lipstick and sent to the prom.

WoW, as MMORPG, is arguably a very fun, excellently designed game (or a horrible piece of derivative trash, depending on who you ask). However it does not advance fantasy as a genre ONE SINGLE FOOT. There is nothing original in WoW, no uniqueness, no smart ideas. It's success comes in large part from it's familiarity, it's simplicity, and it's derivative nature - What does it have to teach D&D? That's debatable, but it sure as hell isn't "new fantasy".

New fantasy, I would argue, is fantasy written in the last five to ten years by new authors, from China Mieville's Perdido Street Station, to Greg Keyes "Kingdoms of Bone and Thorn", to Scott Lynch's "Locke Lamora" cycle, to Joe Abercrombie's "First Law" books, and many many others - all of these books include tropes and ideas not yet really seen in fantasy RPGs much. That's NEW FANTASY, not EQ-derivative MMORPGs (which in turn was severely AD&D derivative). You could also argue the LotR movies were "new fantasy", but they were such a timeless vision of old fantasy novels that I would question that.

So the disdain isn't for "new fantasy", that's misleading spin.

The disdain is for EQ-derivative MMORPGs and apparently for a Japanese animation style - and the disdain is strong because many people loathe derivative MMORPGs with very good reason. They're basically designed to hypnotize the stupid, and keep you mindlessly "advancing your character" forever. There's a lot that's "forced" and "fixed" about them - people don't want to see that in D&D because it's not fun.

Anime is a bit vague, to be honest. Lots of people hate Japanese animation because the vast majority of it that reaches western shores is extremely cliched, often creepy (in a bad way), and frequently extremely childish and child-oriented, which would be fine, if the westerners pushing it as "great entertainment" weren't 20-somethings who should know better (eg. Naruto, One Piece, etc. - all of which have some value being watched a handful of times, I admit). People who hate it are often unclear on what exactly it is they hate.

Some people hate the aesthetics. That's a matter of taste. I've seen anime that was beautiful and anime that's utterly hideous, so I don't think generalizing about the visual aesthetic is terribly helpful. It's all personal, though - for example, I really hate Akira Toriyama's work (if I have that name right), but I can see that the man has talent. I just don't want to look at his designs.

Some people hate the "Over the top anime action", which is similar in nature to so-called "wuxia" and so on. I think it's fine to hate that, but players want to do cool things, and so hate should not blind you to the odd cool thing worth stealing, nor should the baby be thrown out with the bathwater.

Other people just hate the stupid cliches and general "low-IQ" nature of most anime that reaches the West. I'm one of them so I don't feel I'm qualified to be reasonable on that.

Anyway, TLDR of it is: WoW + Anime IS NOT THE NEW FANTASY. WoW is ultra-derivative old fantasy, and anime is an animation style.

Edited in:

We mine fiction and movies for ideas all the time, why not mine video games and anime?

I quite agree - the worry is that one is mining uranium without any protection, though

Sure it glows pretty, but it'll kill ya in the end.

I'm all for mining WoW for "neato" ideas - they did it to Warhammer and D&D, after all, amongst other sources. I just think one needs to be careful not to sweepingly include MMORPG elements in the haste to "learn from" or "mine" something. It could be very bad.

On the other hand, I don't think WotC will screw this one up.

 

[Merlion]

Other people just hate the stupid cliches and general "low-IQ" nature of most anime that reaches the West. I'm one of them so I don't feel I'm qualified to be reasonable on that.
.

I don't think "most anime that reaches the west" is a very good phrase to use at this point. A LOT of anime has now reached the west, far more than just Pokemon and DBZ, and much of it is excellent.

Evangelion, Haibane-Renmei, Serial Experiements: Lain, RahXephon, Outlaw Star, the .//hack series, Fullmetal Alchemist, FLCL, Gilgamesh, Miyazaki's works, Get Backers, Melody of Oblivion, Kenshin, Boogiepop Phantom, and many others are availble here, that are neither low-IQ or primarily aimed at children.

I am not trying to attack or anything, I just dont think trying to not say "all anime" by refering to "what has reached the west" doesnt really work very well at this point.

 

[AllisterH]

Rowling, on the other hand, is an ignoramus regarding fantasy as a genre (literally, her conception of fantasy begins and ends with The Lord of the Rings - Practically from her own admission), and whilst her fantasy series was popular, she has both denied it is fantasy, and then later, claimed she's "revolutionized the genre", when in fact what she's writing is functionally identical to stuff written decades before, none of which was hailed as revolutionary (the "Worst Witch" books, for example). That she is popular does not mean she is "important" to a genre, especially when she's outright denied being part of that genre and denounced the genre on the basis of her own stolid ignorance.

Wait, Rowlings actually said HP wasn't fantasy-fiction? What the hell is it then?

Sounds like Margaret Atwood who basically denies that "A Handmaiden's Tale" isn't classified as science fiction. Then again, most non-gamers I've met who've read "A Handmaiden's Tale" or "A brave New World" don't consider it science fiction. To them, who I'd argue represent a more common cross-section of the general population, science fiction must have rayguns, space aliens and starships.

To me, it sounds like the general public views science/fantasy fiction in the same way many gamers view anime and MMORPGs

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't think "most anime that reaches the west" is a very good phrase to use at this point. A LOT of anime has now reached the west, far more than just Pokemon and DBZ, and much of it is excellent.

Evangelion, Haibane-Renmei, Serial Experiements: Lain, RahXephon, Outlaw Star, the .//hack series, Fullmetal Alchemist, FLCL, Gilgamesh, Miyazaki's works, Get Backers, Melody of Oblivion, Kenshin, Boogiepop Phantom, and many others are availble here, that are neither low-IQ or primarily aimed at children.

I am not trying to attack or anything, I just dont think trying to not say "all anime" by refering to "what has reached the west" doesnt really work very well at this point.

Ah, but some of that I would very much include in my definition of cliche-ridden, low-IQ pap. Outlaw Star and .//hack very definately. .//hack makes it's position even worse by being deeply pretentious and faux-deep, when it's actually puddle-like in it's depth, at least based on the first series. I was quite excited by the concept when I heard about it, I admit.

Serial Experiments Lain, Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, Miyazaki's stuff and NGE and the like, I certainly wouldn't degrade or insult in any way. My question is whether this stuff sells more or less copies than pap like Naruto, or Inuyasha, or that one with the vampire (grrr name escapes me), or DBZ or what have you? Do as many people see it? It seems like when I come across people keen to "push" anime, whilst they mention the "better" anime frequently, 90% of what they're "watching now" is the crap. Which is a little confusing. Perhaps only I'm confused though. Wouldn't be the first time.

Wait, Rowlings actually said HP wasn't fantasy-fiction? What the hell is it then?

That's exactly what she said early on. I can probably even link an example if demanded.

Later she changed her position. For example in an interview with Time, she instead says that has "revolutionized" fantasy, and she goes on in the hilarious fashion that makes it 100% clear that she regards all fantasy as LotR, and has not read, nor come across, any post-LotR fantasy.

 

[Mallus]

People who hate it are often unclear on what exactly it is they hate.

Fixed it for you...

I'll say it again, the idea that the (mostly alleged) influence of anime on D&D will make the game less dignified and realistic is pretty funny.

 

[TwinBahamut]

That's precisely what I've always maintained. D&D can do anime and it can do fantasy and it can do grim-and-gritty (with more difficulty) and a bunch of other things with some tweaking. But right out of the box, what it really does and does well is mythic. Look at the Iliad, the Mahabharata, the Eddas, the Mabinogion ... and so on. The characters there and their capabilities are what D&D maps to very well. D&D does Cuchulainn far more than Conan.

Actually, I have always argued that D&D doesn't quite do enough to emulate ancient myth. Mythic warriors have truly super-human power (fitting, since many are demigods or the avatars of gods), power that is on an entirely different order of magnitude than most videogames or anime, let alone Tolkien-style fantasy. After all, the classic mythic set-up is that a single warrior kills the dragon himself (even Tolkien did this), but D&D is set up so that it is impossible.

Since my fandom of ancient myth predates my interest in anime by a significant degree (and probably goes back to the same time I got into videogame RPGs with Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy 4), I really would like to see D&D work more towards the mythic.

I would like to see more Cuchulainn, Arthur, Heracles, Rama, Hanuman, Odysseus, Finn MacCumhail, and Beowulf in D&D. I would like to see more historical magical and alchemical concepts, like the tarot, Goetic magic, and Hermetic magic. I would like to see more like the great Chinese novels Journey into the West, Water Margin, or Romance of the Three Kingdoms in D&D. I would like to see more Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem, and Suikoden (double counting!) in D&D.

I would probably be happy if there was less emphasis on post-Tolkien and Lovecraftian fiction in D&D, myself. I would be very happy if there was less Star Wars and other science fiction in D&D (I see elements of that creeping up now and then).

 

[Mallus]

...Serial Experiments Lain...NGE...

I like the former and positively adore the latter (easily in my top five SF/F works), but they're both pretentious.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Fixed it for you...

I'll say it again, the idea that the (mostly alleged) influence of anime on D&D will make the game less dignified and realistic is pretty funny.

Good correction, because that is generally true. However, whilst it's easy to mock, and funny, I don't think it's quite fair. D&D's style of unrealistic fantasy has traditionally be slower-paced, with a bit more gravitas than your average fantasy anime (which is often extremely humour-oriented, like Ruin Explorers and Slayers), and features a lot less jumping around and shrieking, and a lot more quietly creeping down corridors and so on. It's definately a different style. People who complain about "realism", though, are definately a little confused. This game has hit points, for god's sake!

I like the former and positively adore the latter (easily in my top five SF/F works), but they're both pretentious.

I'm not sure NGE is as pretentious as it comes across to Western eyes, because all the Biblical stuff is comparable to us doing, I dunno, Greek Gods, and I wonder how seriously Japanese anime viewers took it - I doubt it was remotely as serious as some anime-fans over here. Lain is a pretentious, but it gets away with it by being high quality in a way that .//hack isn't - Don't get me wrong, I wanted to like .//hack, but it was just too faux-deep and teenage-angsty. At least NGE's teenage angst is genuinely stuff that stresses kids out (like Kenshi's sexual orientation confusion).