Disdain for new fantasy

Clavis said:
Creating combat rules that REQUIRE the use of miniatures.
People keep saying this and I keep trying to find it. As if no-one ever used miniatures before 3E.

Clavis said:
An additional expense, that WOTC will be happy to provide you with. How swell of them.

It is, actually. Lead miniatures cost a lot more than the plastic ones, have to be painted and protected, and more than a few handfulls is too heavy to bring to the game.

Clavis said:
The totally unnecessary changes to Halflings and the silly changes to Gnomes (Bards?), both completely top-down and unasked for.

Those are flavor changes, easily house-ruled. In my campaign, all elves have less than a 15% difference among themselves; they all look like they are closely related and a lot of times it's hard to differenciate their sexes. One line, and I totally change how elves are perceived and how they fit into the game world. All the flavor stuff in the PHB is just a suggestion.

I guess you've missed all the posts describing the gnome as a fifth wheel. Wizards has an entire department devoted to nothing more than trying to find out just what people do want. I strongly suspect that what most people do want does not coincide with what you yourself want.
 

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WayneLigon said:
People keep saying this and I keep trying to find it. As if no-one ever used miniatures before 3E.

I've been in numerous D&D games, and the only one I've seen that really used miniatures* was a 1e game.

*For my first 3e game I ran, I bought minis of all the player characters, then used counters/pennys/whatever for the bad guys.
 

While I am sure that miniatures, gnomes, and cloudwatching are all important to people, arn't they a bit off topic for this thread? This thread is about new fantasy, not overall 4E changes, and there are other threads to discuss those exact things. It is beginning to clutter this thread up...
 

Clavis said:
From David Noonan:
"So you've got time. We're going to reveal more and more of the game as time goes on, both here on the wizards site, in the preview books, and at D&D Experience (Feb. 28 to March 3 in DC). But all those individual "reveals" are clouds in the sky. You can admire the clouds' beauty or shake your fists at them, but they're just going to keep moving across the sky anyway.

There's nothing wrong with cloud-watching. If you're a farmer, you need to watch the clouds at least a little. (Maybe DMs are like farmers, but that might be straining the metaphor.) But farmers know that no amount of cloudwatching will bring the rain. (And don't mention cloud-seeding; it messes up the metaphor.)

You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. Given the circumstance you're in as a D&D player right now, those responses are all valid. But none of them move the clouds."

In other words, everything we're seeing right now is just small bits and pieces without any context. Some people read snippets and go off on lengthy tangents about how the game is going to be. I took Noonan as saying, don't sweat it too much, wait and see. I fail to see how this is very insulting.

There is a real lack of respect for D&D players that is being evinced by WOTC, similar to the later TSR. The problem with TSR started with the release of the 2nd edition rules themselves, when TSR decided for everybody that they didn't need Half-Orcs, Assassins, Demons or Devils because those things were for naughty children. In the mid-90s, TSR began releasing endless supplements that "empowered" players. However, even though the supplements were supposed to be optional, they tended to become core and expected parts of the game. This was a deliberate attempt to increase sales of game materials. Soon everybody needed a PC with a kit, skills and powers, and gaming material was written with the assumption you were using that nonsense. Examples of top-down decisions from TSR include the massive crap they took on Greyhawk (for example: "From Their A$$es", I mean "From The Ashes") just to spite Gygax.

Never mind that there are a number of vocal gamers who LIKE From the Ashes. Not me, granted, but, different strokes and all that. This also ignores things like the fact that in 1e THERE WAS NO CORE. Every book was 100% official and there was no guidelines stating that Book X trumps Book Y. Thus you had arguments that brought in Dragon articles and Unearthed Arcana and the like that just went around and around in circles. Sorry, power creep was more than alive and well in 1e era as well.

Some parallel actions from WOTC include:

Creating combat rules that REQUIRE the use of miniatures. An additional expense, that WOTC will be happy to provide you with. How swell of them.

You never played 1e with a protractor and a piece of string? You missed out.

The ever-expanding rule-set, all of which has official sanction. Try to tell some players that they can't play a Thri-Kreen Duskblade/Warlock/Psion with two +6 double-bladed swords, and and they will throw a fit.

Yeah, because my Priest of Kossuth that could summon Fire Elementals (2e) at 5th level wasn't overpowered at all. Or my Paladin using the Cavalier rules from Unearthed Arcana (1e). Or my double spec'ed fighter getting extra attacks and +3 to hit and damage at 1st level. Or...

The totally unnecessary changes to Halflings and the silly changes to Gnomes (Bards?), both completely top-down and unasked for.

Really? Unasked for by you perhaps. However, I'm thinking that you might be in a minority position there.

The whole silly 3.5 edition thing. A .5 edition? I still can't understand it except as a way to make people buy their rule books all over again.

There are easily as many rule changes between 3e and 3.5 as there was between 1e and 2e.

The apparently massive 4th edition re-working of the game, that promises to be compatible with NO previous edition. This way, you'll have to re-purchase ALL of your books. Once again. Just what everybody never asked for. Oh, and lets not forget the fervent denials that 4th edition was anywhere on the horizon.

There you have a point. When 3e came out, the hobby was gasping on its deathbed. Crap rules had choked the life out of the game and a new rules set was greeted with open arms. 4e has some massively huge shoes to fill.

The destruction of Dragon magazine, with the rise of the Digital Initiative. One wonders to what extent 4th edition will be "crippleware" that requires the monthly subscription to be usable.

Just some examples.

Funny thing is, I really believe that WOTC started out with the best of intentions towards D&D. But you know what they say about the road to gaming hell...

As far as Dragon and Dungeon go, well, people forget that both magazines were on life support a few years ago and Paizo managed to bring them back. Well done them. But, both magazines only reached a very, very small number of gamers. The hope is that D&DI will reach a much wider audience. Whether this pans out or not remains to be seen. But, considering they've already stated that online material will be made available offline, the conspiracy theory rumourmongering isn't helping.
 

TwinBahamut said:
While I am sure that miniatures, gnomes, and cloudwatching are all important to people, arn't they a bit off topic for this thread? This thread is about new fantasy, not overall 4E changes, and there are other threads to discuss those exact things. It is beginning to clutter this thread up...

Good point. Sorry, got off on a tangent there. My bad. :)
 

Ah, Slayers. I really enjoyed the show when I first watched it, but I have a hard time seeing it the same way after watching this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZVP1qwteTI

Maybe it's just because Xellos fits the part so freakishly well. Lousy munchkin DM NPCs.... :)

And yeah, the spiked chain isn't bad because it's anime. It's bad because they took a perfectly functional historical weapon and added spikes for no paticular reason.

As far as the relationship between over the top action and anime...I can see a connection, clearly. The thing is, when I was a youngun playing D&D who hadn't even seen anime yet, my characters were already jumping all over the place and pulling wild stunts in my imagination. I'd say it's much more a case of anime meshing with my established tastes than anime influencing my love of action. I'd pin my influences when I started playing more on comic books, american cartoons, fantasy novels, and Street Fighter.
 


Mad Mac - I can agree with that. Over the top action has been a part of gaming for AGES. Heck, I love Errol Flynn movies. There's over the top action right there. Jackie Chan as well.

Much of the themes people talk about here can be traced back an awful lot further than anime. Heck, Peter Pan kills a roomful of pirates and then flies away. Odysseus fires arrows through axeheads. Biblical characters level cities.

The idea of massively powerful humans is hardly a new one.
 


TwinBahamut said:
Oh, Saint Seiya. Yeah, that is an anime. I never saw more than half of a single episode of it though, but I remember seeing chains. No spiked chains though (huge difference), and the chains the one guy had seemed to be functioning as a divining tool from what I saw... Not that I know much about the series. It seems old and campy, and unless you are a kid, something like that is hard to swallow without a good dose of nostalgia. I mean, it probably isn't very different from Ronin Warriors, which I loved as a kid, but mostly like out of nostalgia now.

Yeah, one of the main characters uses a his spiked chain as a divining tool from time to time.

Either way, a chain with a (at least) spike qualifies as a spiked chain? /shrug, I am totally clueless when it comes to weapons, maybe I made the wrong assumption.
 

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