Disdain for new fantasy

Clavis said:
Creating combat rules that REQUIRE the use of miniatures. An additional expense, that WOTC will be happy to provide you with. How swell of them.
I'll have to tell the guys I know at UMBC that they're required to use minis. They've gone a year without them, and I imagine they'll be shocked.

The ever-expanding rule-set, all of which has official sanction. Try to tell some players that they can't play a Thri-Kreen Duskblade/Warlock/Psion with two +6 double-bladed swords, and and they will throw a fit.
The most bizarre character I ever said "no" to was a dragonrider class a friend found online. Someone homebrewed a broken class where you start with a large dragon companion at first level. It reminded me of those broken alternate classes I found when I perused 2e sites in the late 90s.

The totally unnecessary changes to Halflings and the silly changes to Gnomes (Bards?), both completely top-down and unasked for.
Thank God. I loathed "David the Gnome" gnomes and hobbits. Halflings as gypsy thieves and gnomes as wisecracking woodland tinkerers was a wonderful change.

The whole silly 3.5 edition thing. A .5 edition? I still can't understand it except as a way to make people buy their rule books all over again.
The only thing that'll make me madder is if they ever release a basic and an expert and an advanced game. That'll really make my blood boil.

The apparently massive 4th edition re-working of the game, that promises to be compatible with NO previous edition. This way, you'll have to re-purchase ALL of your books. Once again. Just what everybody never asked for. Oh, and lets not forget the fervent denials that 4th edition was anywhere on the horizon.
Well, agreed on that point.

The destruction of Dragon magazine, with the rise of the Digital Initiative. One wonders to what extent 4th edition will be "crippleware" that requires the monthly subscription to be usable.
Eh, I survived just fine without the magazines, and I'm sure I'll be fine without the DI subscription, unless the price is less than or comparable to the costs for the magazine subscriptions.

Just some examples.

Funny thing is, I really believe that WOTC started out with the best of intentions towards D&D. But you know what they say about the road to gaming hell...
It's paved with d4s ? ;)
 

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Ignoring the cloudwatching quote, except to say "it doesn't mean what you think it means; it's just a bad wording"...

Clavis said:
Examples of top-down decisions from TSR include the massive crap they took on Greyhawk (for example: "From Their A$$es", I mean "From The Ashes") just to spite Gygax.
Cites, please?

Creating combat rules that REQUIRE the use of miniatures. An additional expense, that WOTC will be happy to provide you with. How swell of them.
What combat rules? 3.* edition works with no miniatures at all; I should know, having gamed for several years wo. using them. Now, counters or miniatures do enhance and clarify the combat, I think, but they're hardly required.

The ever-expanding rule-set, all of which has official sanction. Try to tell some players that they can't play a Thri-Kreen Duskblade/Warlock/Psion with two +6 double-bladed swords, and and they will throw a fit.
How on Earth is this WotC's fault? This is purely a player-DM problem.

The totally unnecessary changes to Halflings and the silly changes to Gnomes (Bards?), both completely top-down and unasked for.
By the "unnecessary" changes to halflings, I take you refer to their changed appearance and society? (Because, crunch-wise, they aren't that much different from what's gone before.) A lot of people, myself included, found those changes quite welcome; Tolkien's hobbits make lousy adventurers (Bilbo, Frodo & co. being very much the exception from the norm), and it's a bother to keep figuring why all these pudgy homebodies are going out to risk life and limb as rogues.

Gnomes, I can sympathize with you (insofar as I care about them ;) ). IMO, Wizard would be a better favored class for gnomes, with bard or sorcerer fitting the elves nicely.

The whole silly 3.5 edition thing. A .5 edition? I still can't understand it except as a way to make people buy their rule books all over again.
It was a bit clumsily handled, but IMO a good thing. 3.5 fixed some clear problems and generally improved the game.

The apparently massive 4th edition re-working of the game, that promises to be compatible with NO previous edition. This way, you'll have to re-purchase ALL of your books. Once again. Just what everybody never asked for.
With the information we have at this point, it's impossible to tell with any certainty how easy or hard it is to convert material and characters from previous editions into the 4th ed. As for "having to re-purchase your books", nobody is coming to your house, burning down your gaming library, smashing your dice and forcing you, at gunpoint, to buy 4th edition. And no matter what you think, WotC has to address the new gamers as well, who are going to need all the stuff you already have, and more.

Oh, and lets not forget the fervent denials that 4th edition was anywhere on the horizon.
The "fervent denials" thing has been addressed elsewhere, several times by now.

The destruction of Dragon magazine, with the rise of the Digital Initiative. One wonders to what extent 4th edition will be "crippleware" that requires the monthly subscription to be usable.
To the best of my knowledge, the extent will be zero. DI is intended to enhance your game; it's not required. As for the "destruction" of Dragon, it's going to be available online.

Funny thing is, I really believe that WOTC started out with the best of intentions towards D&D. But you know what they say about the road to gaming hell...
And I really believe you believe that. But that doesn't necessarily make your opinion correct, or well-informed.
 


Lurks-no-More said:
And I really believe you believe that. But that doesn't necessarily make your opinion correct, or well-informed.

Of course not. It's my opinion. I don't have access to the mind of any WOTC employee, any of the company's internal memos, or the company balance sheets. All I can do is observe from the outside. Doubtless, at least of some what I now believe about any subject will be proven wrong. With regard to the future of D&D, I HOPE I'm wrong.
 

Jack99 said:
Now, I am not sure I get this anime definition that floats around (since lot of people dont seem to agree.), however, would a cartoon with teenagers with supermartial and supernatural abilities, magical armors and spiked hair qualify for anime?

If so, the spiked chain existed 20+ years ago, when i saw the cartoon. It was called "Les Chevaliers du Zodiaque" in french, but it was a asian cartoon.

EDIT: There we go, its called Saint Seiya, from 86 IMDB LINK
Oh, Saint Seiya. Yeah, that is an anime. I never saw more than half of a single episode of it though, but I remember seeing chains. No spiked chains though (huge difference), and the chains the one guy had seemed to be functioning as a divining tool from what I saw... Not that I know much about the series. It seems old and campy, and unless you are a kid, something like that is hard to swallow without a good dose of nostalgia. I mean, it probably isn't very different from Ronin Warriors, which I loved as a kid, but mostly like out of nostalgia now.

As a side note, Ronin Warriors is the exact anime I was thinking about when I mentioned that anime doesn't need the Spiked Chain because it has the Kusari-Gama.

As for good fantasy anime...
Record of Lodoss War The OVA is higher quality, but the TV series isn't bad.
Berserk The anime is very incomplete, so get the manga. Is not for kids or work safe at all.
The Twelve Kingdoms The result of a Japanese author unfamiliar with fantasy being told to make a fantasy story... Very different from D&D fantasy, but it is one of my favorite anime series of all time.
Fushigi Yugi Also not D&D style fantasy, and is also a shoujo anime (girl's anime) focused on a girl and her group of magical prettyboys. I wish I could find more than the first few DVDs of this...
Scrapped Princess This is D&D fantasy with a distinct twist.
Tsubasa and xxxHolic, two stories about world-hopping heroes and myths in the modern world, respectively, are quite good (though I am making this recommendation based on the manga, not the anime). Tsubasa might be a bit unaproachable unless you have a good background in anime and manga made by CLAMP though...

Arguably, a few other good anime/manga series, like the brilliant Fullmetal Alchemist, qualify as fantasy.
 

Record of Lodoss War -- D&D as we think it should be played.

Slayers -- D&D as we actually play it.

(The latter is a comedy.)

Cheers, -- N
 

AllisterH said:
Can anyone explain why if anything is derived from anime/WoW (even if it has a non-existent connection) it seems like there is opposition not based on the concept itself but from where it comes from?
Why did people hate New Coke?

Why do people hate Fergie?

Why do people hate Uwe Boll movies?

:p
 

Lurks-no-More said:
Ignoring the cloudwatching quote, except to say "it doesn't mean what you think it means; it's just a bad wording"...
.

Can you back that up with proof? Not saying you're wrong and trying to "call you out" but I'd like to see real tangible written proof that the wording is wrong and that's not really what Noonan meant.
 

Clavis said:
The ever-expanding rule-set, all of which has official sanction. Try to tell some players that they can't play a Thri-Kreen Duskblade/Warlock/Psion with two +6 double-bladed swords, and and they will throw a fit.

Man, I wouldn't let a player touch this build. He'd be a total drain on the party's resources, and the player would have nothing to do but miss with his swords or use a low level invocation or power. Not cool. This has to be like the worst optimized build ever. No synergy whatsoever. Thrikeen are awesome dual-wielders. Duskblades are BAD at two weapon fighting, and the warlock and psion levels don't really seem to add much (not much combat buffing potential, save the Eldritch Glaive). Nor do they add to each other if, for some reason, they're going mostly caster (which would be weird, since you're a thrikreen).

I mean, let's not even get into the +6 swords; ONE of those will run you ~1440k, and two will really break the bank :).
 

Nifft said:
Record of Lodoss War -- D&D as we think it should be played.

Slayers -- D&D as we actually play it.

(The latter is a comedy.)

Cheers, -- N

Calling Slayers just a comedy does it a disservice. The thing about Slayers is that it can have its very intense/serious moments (e.g. Lina choosing Gourry over the world/Gourry racing after Lina) but they never forget to have fun with the concept.
 

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