Disdain for new fantasy

[Merlion]

I want in on the anime-hatefest.

WTF is it with the recent prominence of it in the West lately?

In the last fifteen years or so, it seems to me that the influence of Japanese culture on popular culture in the West has grown exponentially.

Most video games seem to have been designed in Japan, many (if not most) of the cartoons on TV are either dubbed anime or domestic copies of the style, Japanese comics and card games are freakishly popular, and it seems like the art in every other webcomic or internet artist's gallery I see displays heavy manga influence.

Japanese culture is alarmingly pervasive in the modern West. What is it about all things Japanese that so fascinates young Westerners?

Now, I don't have anything against the Japanese personally; I spent a little time there a few years back, and I didn't hate it. Heck, I spent three years in college studying the language, and still like to flatter myself with the conceit that I'm pretty good at it. Languages were what I studied in college, and my interest in Japanese was primarily linguistic. The Japanese Culture Envy bug never bit me.

The problem doesn't lie with the Japanese; the blame can be laid at the feet of modern youth in the West.

There's clearly an enormous market over here for Imported Japanese Coolness. Things like anime, manga, Pokemon cards, and Final Fantasy video games wouldn't have so much space given over to them in stores and on the airwaves if there weren't such a huge and hungry herd of cultural disciples, eagerly awaiting the next OAV or card-game expansion. Its ubiquity permeates every facet of the American entertainment industry: toys, games, clothes, books, movies--a portion of nearly every department will be sure to contain a selection of Japanese merchandise, or Japanese-themed merchandise, domestic copies of Japanese stuff, or domestic merchandise that's obviously been heavily influenced by Japan.

It seems like nearly every young person I meet nowadays sports a T-shirt with an anime character, wants to visit Japan, is playing a Japanese video game, wants desperately to learn Japanese, draws a manga-style comic, peppers their speech with Japanese words and phrases, constantly talks about what's happening in Inu-yasha, or has a kanji tattoo. It's almost as if these people wish they were Japanese...

Seriously, what is it about all things Japanese that appeals to people today? What do you find so lacking in your own culture that you find in such abundance in Japan's? What causes you to reject your own heritage and run off to worship at someone else's cultural altar?

.

I love stories. And I love magic. And anime has an abundance of both.

I love many cultures, and I consider all of them to be "mine." I love Grim's fairy tales. I love Tolkien. I study many belief systems, religions, cultures and mythologies, and enjoy stories...especially stories about magic, from more or less all cultures. That includes Japanese, and other east-asian cultures.

For many of us life long lovers of fantasy, a lot of it is simply a change of pace. The Asian mode(s) of storytelling are very different in many ways from the Western, and that makes them refreshing. I find the stories of many anime to be original and different, or at least presented in very different ways. I like the fact that many asian stories/anime/movies take a more stream of conciousness aproach, some times with less emphasis on perfectly crafted plots and more on symbolism feeling and atmosphere. Although some times the reverse is true. I like the fact that anime is often willing to confront and explore things rarely done so in Western cinema, in powerful and exacting ways.


Also remember, many Americans dont really feel they have much of a cultural heritage, especially from a fantasy/mythology perspective. Modern America doesnt really have its own mythology, being a modern nation composed mainly of immigrants. My heritage, as far as where my family traces back too, is English, Scots, Welsh and Austrian mostly. And I love the folklore and stories of those places as well. So is that betraying my "heritage" as someone born in America?

Also, its not all youth. Many people I know who enjoy anime are well into their 30s and beyond. Theres a lot more of it now, but there was plenty of anime in the US in the 70s and 80s.

Frankly, I'd rather not see my Dungeons and Dragons contaminated by its influence.

Well, I think "contaminated" is rather to pejorative of a term here. As I said in an earlier post 1) I dont really feel that the aesthetic of anime as a whole fits very well with D&D either and 2) I dont really see where Anime is having any real influence on D&D.

 

[Merlion]

Just because I so very rarely get to do this:

I agree 100% with Raven Crowking.

You most certainly can judge something objectively. Just because something is not 100% objective doesn't make it subjective. It may be less objective than another thing, but, that doesn't make it 100% subjective.

For example, the criteria chosen may be chosen in a subjective way, but the judgement rendered by those criteria may be 100% objective.

For some, the only criteria that apparently matters is, "Is it enjoyable". Now, that criteria is somewhat objective, since it boils down to yes or no. Did I like it? Yes? Then it's good. However, that criteria isn't very useful because it doesn't actually tell us anything. It doesn't tell us why you think it's good, nor does it allow us to make any sort of prediction for future works.

On the other hand, a more encompassing series of criteria, based on a number of elements, tells us a great deal more than just "it's good." Going by the popularity scale, one should say that Rowling is the single best writer in English history. She's sold more books than any contemporary writer.

However, I doubt many people would seriously try to claim that J. K. Rowlings is the best writer in the history of the English language. Granted, trying to find out who is would fill a lot of books, but, I'm pretty sure that Rowlings can be knocked off in the preliminaries. Names like Milton, Shakespeare, and others might be possibly better contenders, despite being nowhere near as popular.

Star Wars is the top grossing film of all time. Does that mean it's the best movie ever made? Would anyone seriously make that claim?

Things which are popular may be very good. Things which are popular may be not so good. To determine any sort of objective "goodness" we need a better metric than "popular".

So what "metric" are we going to come up with that everyone can agree on?

Whats the problem with everyone having their own opinions and all those opinions being valid?

 

[Umbran]

I see a whole lot of getting on high-horses and taunting and smarmy snootiness going on here. The lack of respect for each other is palpable, and it will end now.

Respect, folks. It isn't difficult. If you've got a problem with it, please feel free to e-mail a mod to discuss it.

 

[Darth Shoju]

So what "metric" are we going to come up with that everyone can agree on?

Whats the problem with everyone having their own opinions and all those opinions being valid?

I agree everyone's opinion should be valid. That doesn't mean their opinion is informed, however. And by not making any attempt at determining quality, everything tends to end up rather similar. Its the danger of a monopoly; without competition to drive innovation, the product tends to stagnate.

 

[Merlion]

I agree everyone's opinion should be valid.That doesn't mean their opinion is informed .

Their opinion about a given work doesnt necessarily need to be informed by anything other than experiencing that work.

And by not making any attempt at determining quality, everything tends to end up rather similar. Its the danger of a monopoly; without competition to drive innovation, the product tends to stagnate.

I dont see this as a problem, as the desire to innovate, grow and expand is pretty much built into most artists/creative types. I speak from experience as a writer in this...even though I dont accept the notion of objectively "bad" creative works, I still attempt to improve my own work within the framework of my own personal standards and those of my personal audience.

 

[FireLance]

Japanese culture is alarmingly pervasive in the modern West. What is it about all things Japanese that so fascinates young Westerners?

In all likelihood? It's just something different. And it's not something unique to Western youth.

I'm sure that there are plenty of young Japanese who are fascinated by American culture.

There certainly are plenty of young Singaporeans who are fascinated by American culture.

And plenty of other young Singaporeans who are fascinated by Japanese culture.

And (a more recent phenomenon) yet other young Singaporeans who are fascinated by Korean culture.

Of course, the counter-argument to that is Singapore doesn't really have much culture of its own to begin with. :\

 

[Merlion]

I'm sure that there are plenty of young Japanese who are fascinated by American culture.

Very much so, from what I understand. Probably to a greater degree than the reverse.

 

[hong]

In all likelihood? It's just something different. And it's not something unique to Western youth.

I'm sure that there are plenty of young Japanese who are fascinated by American culture.

There certainly are plenty of young Singaporeans who are fascinated by American culture.

And plenty of other young Singaporeans who are fascinated by Japanese culture.

And (a more recent phenomenon) yet other young Singaporeans who are fascinated by Korean culture.

Of course, the counter-argument to that is Singapore doesn't really have much culture of its own to begin with. :\

Hey, it was pretty cool when I was there....

 

[Darth Shoju]

Their opinion about a given work doesnt necessarily need to be informed by anything other than experiencing that work.

And yet there are people that will voice their opinion on books they haven't read, movies they haven't seen, and so on. Is their opinion as valid as someone who has?

I dont see this as a problem, as the desire to innovate, grow and expand is pretty much built into most artists/creative types. I speak from experience as a writer in this...even though I dont accept the notion of objectively "bad" creative works, I still attempt to improve my own work within the framework of my own personal standards and those of my personal audience.

But if it was "good" to begin with, how do you know when and what to improve? If something can be better than it was before, can there not be a point when you could have called it "bad"? If your story has incomprehensible grammar, glaring inconsistencies and a plot that makes no sense, can you call it "good" if even one person finds it entertaining? What if that person is you?

 

[tlantl]

I don't see much difference. D&D was originally inspired by pop culture trash - fantasy pulps, space opera, Hammer horror, David Carradine's Kung Fu, 70s Marvel comics, and even bizarre kids' toys. Now it's still being inspired by pop culture trash.

Okay, some D&D is derived from ancient myth and folklore but it's not a deep reading thereof. It's myth as cheap thrill, being mined solely for weird-shaped monsters for the PCs to murder.

Perzactly. Thats the whole idea. Lets all mindlessly slaughter folklore and fairy stories. Take all of their phatt lewt and Pretend to drink heavily on the spoils.(Cause drinking heavily for real while playing is so unfun.)

It's kind of hard to have deep philosphical discussions where the point of the whole thing is to help a body to unwind and play pretend for a while and Kill the crap out of a lot of fairies and to take their ... I seem to have been here before, uh, Maybe problem solve a little and explore places that we wish might exist, then Kill the snot outa everything, then take their stuff, perspecially the phatt lewt, and then pretend to drink heavily on the spoils.

Anything less would be more civilized. And way less fun!

Never cared for anime myself. I steal the ideas of well respected and widely read fantasy and science fiction writers. Mostly the sci-fi stuff I don't much care for the fantasy genre either.