Disdain for new fantasy

[Merlion]

That's not quite right. Say you know this guy who really wants to play jazz. But, he's got the wrong rhythm and can't swing. He doesn't understand his jazz scales. Every time he tries to improv he loses the beat. He's a pretty bad jazz musician.

Doesn't mean what he's playing is bad in and of itself. It might be enjoyable to listen to. Many people might love his music, in fact. Doesn't mean he's not a horrible jazz musician, though.

So, when you hear about educated experts. They're educated in a particular matter. And, analyzing something with that matter in mind they can tell whether it fits and how good or bad it is with that philosophy in mind.

That's what the objective good and bad are all about.

With that philosophy in mind, yes. But others may have a different philsophy, which is also valid. And therefore, it isnt objectively bad...only within the context of that philosophy.

Which is exactly what I was saying last time we all had this discussion. If you choose to use a certain set of pre existing criteria, a school of thought or whatever, on an artform as your judge of wether its good or bad for you, great. Then its good or bad for you, based on that. But not objectively, for everyone.

 

[Merlion]

Or, to put it another way: with a precisely-defined measurement scale in mind, you can rank different things on that scale so that some things are closer to the "good" end than others. The trick is getting other people to care about about the measurement scale you're using.

Exactly what I am saying. Thank you for that insightfully different way of putting it, Mr. Orange Kitten.

 

[Merlion]

I hold this post as proof that you have not been even making an attempt to understand my position.

Regardless, your increasingly insulting attitude, and the fact that you are bringing the American/British difference into this of all things (blatantly claiming the British are great guys who agree with you, and Americans are idiots who disagree with you), both are going to make me drop out this conversation. You are not worth talking to anymore.

But, if you want to bring national divide into this...

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that the difference in reactions to you calling something "crap" is not an expression of superior British good humor, but rather a simple product of different definitons of "crap"?

I mean, from my own use and awareness of the term, "crap" means it has no redeeming value. Such a thing would not be watchable, and no possible enjoyment can be derived from it. As such, "enjoying crap" is an inherent contradiction based on definiton. It's an oxymoron. If the British can laugh it off as not a contradiction, than maybe there is a slight difference of defintion of "crap" you are not taking into account.

However, you jumped straight at the national insults. I bet you would throw my last name's nationality at me if you could. Congratulations, you are the first person I have ever put on an ignore list in a forum.

From what I can tell, essentially he defines "crap" as anything that doesnt fit into some specific set of high brow academic artistic criteria, regardless of enjoyability or anyone elses feelings about a work

 

[Desdichado]

This has to be my new .sig. I think you're right btw.

But who is then?

Why me, of course.

 

[Merlion]

Why me, of course.

For yourself yea. Just not for anyone else, or any "objective truth" of the quality of art.

 

[Desdichado]

For yourself yea. Just not for anyone else, or any "objective truth" of the quality of art.

Well, of course. Honestly, nobody can say anything of any substance about a work of art other than their opinion on it.

Of course saying "that's a piece of crap" has the implicit "in my opinion" tacked on.

All y'all are really getting yourself in a huff about is the tone with which Ruin Explorer said it. not with what he said per se. Which is pretty classic RE, believe me. He's been around for years, and he always posts that way. It's nothing personal.

 

[Merlion]

Well, of course. Honestly, nobody can say anything of any substance about a work of art other than their opinion on it.

Of course saying "that's a piece of crap" has the implicit "in my opinion" tacked on.

All y'all are really getting yourself in a huff about is the tone with which Ruin Explorer said it. not with what he said per se. Which is pretty classic RE, believe me. He's been around for years, and he always posts that way. It's nothing personal.

Yes...the tone was offensive, and not just in a "you hurt my feelings" way. I have a problem with rudeness and discourtesy, no matter who it is aimed at. And wether its meant to be "personal" or not, it is not what you'd call positive bheaviour.

But it was also the statements themselves. "thats a piece of crap" doesnt come with an "in my opinion" when the person is stating that the thing is crap, objectively, totally, and for everyone. Thats where my problem lies...in that, and in the final conclusions of that point of view.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

I want in on the anime-hatefest.

WTF is it with the recent prominence of it in the West lately?

In the last fifteen years or so, it seems to me that the influence of Japanese culture on popular culture in the West has grown exponentially.

Most video games seem to have been designed in Japan, many (if not most) of the cartoons on TV are either dubbed anime or domestic copies of the style, Japanese comics and card games are freakishly popular, and it seems like the art in every other webcomic or internet artist's gallery I see displays heavy manga influence.

Japanese culture is alarmingly pervasive in the modern West. What is it about all things Japanese that so fascinates young Westerners?

Now, I don't have anything against the Japanese personally; I spent a little time there a few years back, and I didn't hate it. Heck, I spent three years in college studying the language, and still like to flatter myself with the conceit that I'm pretty good at it. Languages were what I studied in college, and my interest in Japanese was primarily linguistic. The Japanese Culture Envy bug never bit me.

The problem doesn't lie with the Japanese; the blame can be laid at the feet of modern youth in the West.

There's clearly an enormous market over here for Imported Japanese Coolness. Things like anime, manga, Pokemon cards, and Final Fantasy video games wouldn't have so much space given over to them in stores and on the airwaves if there weren't such a huge and hungry herd of cultural disciples, eagerly awaiting the next OAV or card-game expansion. Its ubiquity permeates every facet of the American entertainment industry: toys, games, clothes, books, movies--a portion of nearly every department will be sure to contain a selection of Japanese merchandise, or Japanese-themed merchandise, domestic copies of Japanese stuff, or domestic merchandise that's obviously been heavily influenced by Japan.

It seems like nearly every young person I meet nowadays sports a T-shirt with an anime character, wants to visit Japan, is playing a Japanese video game, wants desperately to learn Japanese, draws a manga-style comic, peppers their speech with Japanese words and phrases, constantly talks about what's happening in Inu-yasha, or has a kanji tattoo. It's almost as if these people wish they were Japanese...

Seriously, what is it about all things Japanese that appeals to people today? What do you find so lacking in your own culture that you find in such abundance in Japan's? What causes you to reject your own heritage and run off to worship at someone else's cultural altar?

Frankly, I'd rather not see my Dungeons and Dragons contaminated by its influence.

 

[Hussar]

Just because I so very rarely get to do this:

I agree 100% with Raven Crowking.

You most certainly can judge something objectively. Just because something is not 100% objective doesn't make it subjective. It may be less objective than another thing, but, that doesn't make it 100% subjective.

For example, the criteria chosen may be chosen in a subjective way, but the judgement rendered by those criteria may be 100% objective.

For some, the only criteria that apparently matters is, "Is it enjoyable". Now, that criteria is somewhat objective, since it boils down to yes or no. Did I like it? Yes? Then it's good. However, that criteria isn't very useful because it doesn't actually tell us anything. It doesn't tell us why you think it's good, nor does it allow us to make any sort of prediction for future works.

On the other hand, a more encompassing series of criteria, based on a number of elements, tells us a great deal more than just "it's good." Going by the popularity scale, one should say that Rowling is the single best writer in English history. She's sold more books than any contemporary writer.

However, I doubt many people would seriously try to claim that J. K. Rowlings is the best writer in the history of the English language. Granted, trying to find out who is would fill a lot of books, but, I'm pretty sure that Rowlings can be knocked off in the preliminaries. Names like Milton, Shakespeare, and others might be possibly better contenders, despite being nowhere near as popular.

Star Wars is the top grossing film of all time. Does that mean it's the best movie ever made? Would anyone seriously make that claim?

Things which are popular may be very good. Things which are popular may be not so good. To determine any sort of objective "goodness" we need a better metric than "popular".

 

[Darth Shoju]

The problem doesn't lie with the Japanese; the blame can be laid at the feet of modern youth in the West.

There's a *problem* in that rant somewhere? Is British culture in danger of disappearing somehow?