Disjoin soul, Final version?

[Cheiromancer]

Normally not a good idea to post when you're tired; you make silly mistakes. But you don't have to be sleepy to do that- I just realized that my earlier rewrite ignored the fact that the spell targets only corporeal creatures. The reference to spirits making up an undead's body refers to incorporeal undead- it should be stricken. Omit the indicated words:

First, undead are susceptible to the spell; the spirits which animate (or make up) their bodies are susceptible to being disjoined.

Since the spell can affect constructs, you should amend this sentence:

if it fails a further DC 15 Fortitude save the creature perishes, in the case of living creatures they die, and undead are destroyed

Also you shouldn't change the subject from singular to plural (although I have a sneaky suspicion I am the author of that stylistic faux pas. Anyway, it still shouldn't be written like that). Simply say "...in the case of a living creature it dies, and otherwise is destroyed." Destroyed covers undead and constructs both. Actually, you can just say "dies or is destroyed" instead of "perishes" and drop the rest of the sentence.

Again, a matter of style concerns me with the sentence that ends with "... the characters soul is slung in a hostile realm that threatens to destroy the target’s soul." I would suggest rewriting it thus: "the character's soul is slung into a hostile realm that threatens to destroy it." I don't care for the word "slung" (I prefer "flung") but I'll leave that up to you.

In an earlier version I wanted to make it clear that a creature whose body died could be raised normally. The sentence I wrote expressing this notion has since mutated into the following:

If the body is dead when the soul returns to it (either because it failed a Fortitude save or for some other reason) there is no additional ability penalty.

Now, I can't think of any reason why someone might think there would be an additional ability penalty. The description says that the Wisdom check is repeated until the soul returns to its body. Once the soul actually returns, it is clear that you make no more checks. Since the abilty penalty only worsens on a failed check, it is clear that there will be no additional ability penalty. Saying something that goes without saying is likely to make people think that they missed some detail that made the utterance necessary. So the line should be removed.

I'd like it to be a 9th level spell, but if at the end of the day it isn't I'll peg it at 8th. What If I change the saves (as Fieari requests) would that bump it up?

The first round save (Fort save or take 3d6 and be nauseated for 1 round) could be a standard Fort save. It makes it more likely that the target will lose an action. (Nauseated creatures can only take a move equivalent action per round.) I think you could and should change it.

But as for the other saves... really, I think the spell is balanced around bypassing SR, deathward, and standard immunities. I don't really see it as doing much more than taking someone out of the fight for a few rounds. If the initial Will save fails, the target of the spell is likely going to be coup de graced- or at least sneak attacked or power attacked for massive damage.

And a DC 15 wisdom check... what would that correspond to as a Will save? Let's take a high wisdom character. Hmm. Suppose we have a 20th level cleric, 28 Wisdom, two prestige classes with good will saves, +4 bonus to saves from items. Nothing exceptional as far as 20th level clerics go. +9 wisdom modifier, so 75% likely to make a DC 15 wisdom check. But the guy's Will save is +29. He's 75% likely to make a DC 35 Will save.

Now what is the save DC of a 9th level spell going to be? Assume the caster also has a 28 ability score, and give him Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. That's a DC of 30. The cleric has a much better chance of making the save DC than making the Wisdom check DC.

Maybe this is a bad example- the cleric has to have rolled a 1 on the initial save vs disjoin soul. But I think you'll find that a DC 15 wisdom check is not as easy as it looks. And the point of those saves is not the ability damage or the chance of dying; it is the time spent helpless in combat.

Suppose the cleric was a sorcerer lich instead. Wisdom is high for a sorcerer- 15, say, and the other bits are the same (two prestige classes, +4 saves from items, etc.). +22 to Will saves, so he must have rolled a 7 or less on the save (he has a 65% chance of success vs a DC 30 will save). He has to roll a 13 or better on the Wisdom check... that's only a 40% chance of success. So the spell is deadlier if it is a Wisdom check (tip: use a limited wish to worsen the lich's chances for the first round or two. Then the Wisdom penalty will have a chance to accumulate, and the lich's soul will probably be destroyed.)

OK. Just opened up the MMII at random. Suppose the party is fighting a Corpse Tearer (p.141), a kind of dragon. A CR of 28 makes it a tough challenge for a 20th level party. It has SR 39... but the caster doesn't worry about SR. Touch AC is a measely 5. No problem hitting (though you have to be uncomfortably close to the beast- lucky it has a -1 initiative). Will save of +21. 60% chance of making the initial Will Save. If successful, it has a 75% chance of making the Fort save after. Not good odds for the spellcaster, just a little better than even for getting something out of the spell, but suppose the Will save is failed. The Corpse Tearer has a 20 wisdom, so needs a 10 or better on its wisdom checks. That's a 55% chance of success- less than if it was a Will Save!

I guess I'm saying that replacing the DC 15 Wisdom check with a Will save will usually make the spell weaker, not stronger. At epic levels I would expect saving throws to increase considerably faster than Wisdom scores, and probably faster than spell DCs do. At epic levels, then, it is probably best to keep it a flat DC, but trust that the spell will only work for a round or two at best. All you really need is enough time to coup de grace the subject of the spell.

And the examples given show that it is not too unlikely that the spell will essentially take out a CR 22 lich or a CR 28 dragon. I think that safely puts it in the range of a 9th level spell.

Is it too powerful?

I don't think so. A caster could use assay resistance and a heightened Hold Monster to perform the same trick with the Corpse Tearer; the odds aren't quite as good (since there is still a chance SR will apply, even if the wizard has the spell penetration feat), but it can also be done at range. And if unsuccesful the assay resistance lasts for 1 round/level, allowing other save or die spells to be cast. So against the Corpse Tearer the spell sounds about right; it isn't much more effective than a fairly obvious (and underpowered- who uses Heighten spell?) combo.

Neutralizing a lich's phylactery? That's a tough one. But note that it takes some extra work to do, since the Wisdom checks are likely to succeed (although if it was a Wisdom 10 sorcerer lich...). Not only does the lich have to be in touch range, and have to fail its initial save, but it has to fail a few wisdom checks too. A few Limited wishes would be needed. Now granted that limited wish has a trivial xp cost, but still, that's several spells that are needed. So I'd think it is also in the 9th level spell range. But not absurdly overpowered.

So, to make a long story short, I'd say to make a few mechanical and stylistic changes but leave the spell basically as it is. It is a nice 9th level spell. It has limitations, but considerable strengths as well.

[edit]

Cheiro, you're a genius and a life-saver.

You're pretty clever yourself. I wouldn't have spent this amount of time and energy tinkering with the spell if you hadn't encouraged me. Thanks. [/edit]

 

[Cheiromancer]

A few last thoughts (and probably silly ones, since now *I'm* sleepy).

• About the material component; if it is 50 gp, it should probably be obsidian dust again. Black opals are for things that cost 1000s of gp.
  
• If someone thinks the no SR feature is too powerful (even for a touch spell), then this thread might be of interest. It talks about assay resistance, spell vulnerability and lower resistance. Enough to make bypassing SR look like a fairly routine task, not a huge plus for the spell.
  
• I also remembered why the fort saves are DC 15; that's the same as a save from massive damage, and is due to the trauma of having your soul ripped from your body. Critters immune to massive damage shouldn't have to make the save. That means undead and constructs aren't affected, and the discussion about "die or be destroyed" is off topic. This is just logic and flavor, not balance, but should be in the spell somewhere. Also, if the massive damage save is house ruled, it should affect this number. Wording it as follows should do it:
  
  

  In such a case the character takes a wisdom penalty of 1d6 point and falls unconscious. Furthermore, the target must save as if versus massive damage (50 hit points, worth a DC 15 Fortitude save) or die.

• Alternatively, make the Fort save the same DC as the spell, but make it do 3d6 damage. This makes it symmetrical with the first save. You can forget all about references to massive damage. You can just drop the "DC 15" from "DC 15 Fort save" since the default value for a saving throw is the value for the spell. I think I kinda like this version better.
  
• The Wisdom check to find your way back was modeled after the Intelligence check in maze. Modified a little since there are Wisdom penalties incurred by this spell. But if maze doesn't improve at higher levels, neither should this spell. So I'm still cool to Fieari's idea... at least for the ability check. The Fort saves can scale.
  
• Talking about symmetry in the spell; if the target succeeds in both initial saves, have it still be sickened for the rest of that round and the next. It is only a -2, but the wizard will have something to show for having to get in close and waste a 9th level spell slot. And it ties in nicely with what happens when the soul finally makes its way back; it is as if the initial saves succeeded.

So the spell would look like this:

Disjoin soul
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: Standard action
Range: Touch
Effect: One corporeal creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will Special (see text)
Spell resistance: No

This spell disjoins the target’s soul, separating it from the body and casting it into a hostile plane. On a successful Will save the target of the spell must make a Fortitude save or take 3d6 points of damage and become nauseated for the rest of that round and sickened the next. If both saves are successful the character is sickened for the rest of that round. On a failed Will save the character's soul is slung in a hostile realm that threatens to destroy it. In such a case the character takes a Wisdom penalty of 1d6 points and falls unconscious, and must succeed in a further Fortitude save or take 3d6 points of lethal damage.

The soul has been disjoined and must intuit its own way back to the body. The fragment that remains with the body will sustain life (or a semblance thereof) for only a brief time. Each round the subject makes a DC 15 Wisdom check to see if its soul can intuit the way back to its body (to which it maintains a faint connection); if this check is unsuccessful it takes an additional 1d6 Wisdom penalty and its body must make another Fortitude save or take 3d6 points of lethal damage.

This process is repeated each round (even if the body dies or is destroyed) until either the subject succeeds in its Wisdom check or its effective Wisdom has been reduced to zero. If the Wisdom check is successful the soul returns to its body; if the body is still alive it regains consciousness, but is sickened for the remainder of that round. Creatures subject to ability damage have the Wisdom penalty converted to Wisdom damage on a 1 for 1 basis; this Wisdom damage persists until it is healed, either naturally or by magic. The Wisdom penalty otherwise persists for 24 hours. If the body is dead when the soul returns to it (either because of failed Fortitude saves or for some other reason) the body remains dead, but can be raised normally. However if disjoin soul reduces a subject's effective wisdom to zero it means the soul has been destroyed before it could return. If the target is a living creature, it dies; otherwise it is destroyed. Someone whose soul has been destroyed cannot be raised from the dead or reincarnated until the soul has been restored. Even a lich's phylactery will be ineffective if the lich's soul has been destroyed. Restoring a destroyed soul requires a carefully worded wish or miracle.

The disjoin soul spell attempts to teleport the soul of an individual to another plane, and effects that block or redirect teleportation or planar travel will negate it. A limited wish or stronger magic will allow a soul to find its way back even if the body is dead. Magic which cures ability damage (like lesser restoration or heal) will restore a soul to a living body; the magic strengthens the tenuous link between body and soul and facilitates an immediate return. In either of these cases the character is treated as having succeeded in the Wisdom check (and so is sickened until its next turn). Other magic may have analogous effects on undead; harm, for example, benefits undead as heal does living beings.

Disjoin soul affects any creature that can be affected by the raise dead spell (including native outsiders). Creatures who can't be raised generally can't have their souls disjoined either, with two exceptions. First, undead are susceptible to the spell, since the spirits which animate their bodies are similar to living souls except for being composed of negative energy. Second, constructs can be affected if their construction involves one or more conjuration (healing) or necromancy spells, since these spells create a disjoinable life force (most spells use wish or limited wish instead, and so can't be disjoined).

Material Component: 50 gp of powdered obsidian.

 

[Ferret]

I'm happy with that, thank you so much for you help. I'm really pleased with the spell now.