Dispel Magic and Spell Turning

[andargor]

It seems to me that Greater Arcane Sight would be the only way to be able to target a particular spell that isn't obvious (e.g. Wall of Fire).

Wall of fire is fairly obvious, and visible. Why wouldn't you be able to dispel it without (greater) arcane sight?

Andargor

 

[dcollins]

It's just that "spell" isn't listed in the "Target or Area" entry of dispel magic. Since a spell is not an object or creature, I am not sure that the text you quoted applies in this instance.

I know, but of course it does explicitly list it in the text under "Targeted Dispel". Which seems like it generates two options: (1) The text is in error, and you cannot target a spell at all. (2) The header is incomplete, you can target a spell, and normal targeting requirements apply (i.e., must see the target).

P.S.: Bad Paper is using wall of fire as an example of a spell that is obvious.

 

[Bad Paper]

Greater Arcane Sight

yeah, I'm saying that the only way to target specific invisible spells that are active on a creature (everything from Resistance to Dominate Monster) should be with Greater Arcane Sight. This is the only spell that tells you exactly what effects are active on someone. This makes sense to me, anyway, because targetting a spell in this way seems to be a pretty nifty trick, and a seventh-level divination seems about right for that power.

I'm not sure I would even allow someone to specifically target, say, Bear's Endurance on someone else, even if he had seen it cast. I would require a dispel targetted at the creature, not the spell, unless the dispeller had GAS going.

 

[dcollins]

And I actually agree that greater arcane sight (in 3.5) is the only thing I can see that would allow that, as well.

 

[andargor]

And I actually agree that greater arcane sight (in 3.5) is the only thing I can see that would allow that, as well.

Hmm. I fail to see why, by that rationale, detect magic or arcane sight would not be sufficient.

I think I've got to disagree with that. Being able to "identify a spell" is not the same as being able to "see a spell" (neither necessary nor sufficient) -- in fact, you see the distinction in the requirement that you quoted.

As you say, you don't need to identify the spell. Greater arcane sight reveals auras, just like the other two. It just "identifies" the spell in addition.

Therefore, don't all three allow you to "see" the spell?

Andargor

EDIT: I meant detect, not dispel...

 

[dcollins]

Even seeing an "aura" is not the same as seeing a "spell". Most detect magic-type divinations will show an aura, a strength, and maybe a school -- but not the spell itself. The way I read it in the rules, objects or creatures only have one aura, regardless of how many spell effects they have on them.

I know many people think differently on this point. If some DMs allow detect magic + DC 20 level Spellcraft check to "see" the spell (that is "aura" + "identify" = "seeing"), then that's a reasonable interpretation. But that equivalence is not really in the rules.

In short: Detect magic doesn't tell you what spells are in effect. Greater arcane sight does. And that still requires a generous interpretation (since even then it doesn't say that you "see" it.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way I read it in the rules, objects or creatures only have one aura, regardless of how many spell effects they have on them.

Doesn't "Multiple types of magic may distort or conceal weaker auras" suggest that someone might have several different auras, some of which are distorted or concealed by others?

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Boy, I've derailed this thread.

Doesn't "Multiple types of magic may distort or conceal weaker auras" suggest that someone might have several different auras, some of which are distorted or concealed by others?

Well, no, because the full quote from detect magic is:

Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

It's talking about a locality, "areas" and "local magical emanations". That line isn't about magic on one object, it's about magic on separate objects in one area.

A better example is any magic item with multiple abilities, I'll pick one...

Aura: Most of the time, a detect magic spell will reveal the school of magic associated with a magic item and the strength of the aura an item emits. This information (when applicable) is given at the beginning of the item’s notational entry. See the detect magic spell description for details.

Ring of Elemental Command (Water)
• Water walk (unlimited use)
• Create water (unlimited use)
• Water breathing (unlimited use)
• Wall of ice (once per day)
• Ice storm (twice per week)
• Control water (twice per week)
The ring appears to be a ring of water walking until the established condition is met.
Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Forge Ring, summon monster VI, all appropriate spells; Price 200,000 gp.

When you scan this ring with detect magic, you don't get 6+ different auras. You get one aura, "Strong conjuration". Same for any magic item in the DMG, even those with lots of different magic on it.

 

[andargor]

Even seeing an "aura" is not the same as seeing a "spell". Most detect magic-type divinations will show an aura, a strength, and maybe a school -- but not the spell itself. The way I read it in the rules, objects or creatures only have one aura, regardless of how many spell effects they have on them.

I know many people think differently on this point. If some DMs allow detect magic + DC 20 level Spellcraft check to "see" the spell (that is "aura" + "identify" = "seeing"), then that's a reasonable interpretation. But that equivalence is not really in the rules.

In short: Detect magic doesn't tell you what spells are in effect. Greater arcane sight does. And that still requires a generous interpretation (since even then it doesn't say that you "see" it.)

I don't want to beat this point to death or to sound obtuse.

It's just that this whole line of thinking doesn't ring true for me. Greater arcane sight functions like arcane sight, which in turn functions "similarly" to detect magic. All three detect auras.

Detect Magic
...
You detect magical auras.
...
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each.

Arcane Sight
...
This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but Arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.
...
You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight.

Arcane Sight, Greater
...
This spell functions like arcane sight, except that you automatically know which spells or magical effects are active upon any individual or object you see.

Note the following, which implies that detect magic can locate the magic aura from a spell within an object as precisely as greater arcane sight. As well, this implies that detect magic can locate a spell from its aura even if it is in a creature, or even an area.

Magic Items and Detect Magic

When detect magic identifies a magic item's school of magic, this information refers to the school of the spell placed within the potion, scroll, or wand, or the prerequisite given for the item. The description of each item provides its aura strength and the school it belongs to.

If more than one spell is given as a prerequisite, use the highest-level spell. If no spells are included in the prerequisites, use the following default guidelines.

This leads to two interpretations:

1) If identifying the spell is sufficient, or even necessary, then Spellcraft + detect magic will allow the use of dispel magic to target a spell which has no visible effect.

2) If identifying the specific spell on a creature, object, or in an area is not a prerequisite for targeting a spell which has no visible effect with dispel magic, then just locating it is sufficient. And all three above spells will do that.

Ergo, in all cases, the above three spells will do the trick, with the difference being Spellcraft if you need to identify it.

Andargor

EDIT: The short descripton for detect magic is:

Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.

 

[Hypersmurf]

When you scan this ring with detect magic, you don't get 6+ different auras. You get one aura, "Strong conjuration". Same for any magic item in the DMG, even those with lots of different magic on it.

Just looking at Wondrous Items:

Apparatus of Kwalish: Strong evocation and transmutation
Boots of the Winterlands: Faint abjuration and transmutation
Cloak of Arachnida: Faint conjuration and transmutation
Obsidian Steed Figurine: Strong conjuration and transmutation
Silver Raven Figurine: Faint enchantment and transmutation
Clay Golem Manual: Moderate conjuration, divination, enchantment, and transmutation
Flesh Golem Manual: Moderate enchantment, necromancy [evil], and transmutation
Iron Golem Manual: Strong conjuration, enchantment and transmutation
Stone Golem Manual: Strong abjuration and enchantment
Helm of Telepathy: Faint divination and enchantment
Horn of the Tritons: Moderate conjuration and transmutation
Mask of the Skull: Strong necromancy and transmutation
Mirror of Mental Prowess: Strong conjuration and divination
Pearl of the Sirines: Moderate abjuration and transmutation
Pipes of Pain: Faint enchantment and evocation
Scarab of Protection: Strong abjuration and necromancy
Stone Salve: Strong abjuration and transmutation
Vest of Escape: Faint conjuration and transmutation

Now, the multiple auras all have the same strength because they're based on caster level, and items only have one caster level.

But if you cast Invisibility at caster level 3 on a Horn of the Tritons, it would radiate Moderate conjuration and transmutation, and Faint illusion [glamer], with the possibility of the weaker illusion aura being distorted or concealed.

-Hyp.