Dispel Magic

Falling Icicle said:
This is exactly the kind of design philosophy in 4th edition that is troubling me. So removing a buff causes the game to grind to a halt while you figure out new statistics, but having buffs last only one round is fine? If buffs being removed really do cause the game to grind to a halt than 4e is going to be a disaster, since almost every buff is removed 1 round later. I'll take the long buffs and dispels any day. At least then when I modify my statistics to account for a buff that information is going to be good for a while.
My experience is contrary to this. If they have time to prepare, PCs and NPCs sometimes use about 20 rounds to get all their buffs up in 3E. Once they engage, targeted dispels start flying left and right, burdening players and DM alike to spend time reconfiguring stats for multiple vanishing effects at the same time.

Though both 3E and 4E are to my liking from what I've seen, I think 4E does Dispel Magic better. It only removes one effect so adjudicating new stats takes little time, and its a Daily so there won't be an abundance of these instances in combat.

It’s easy to handle single effects coming and going at a time, it’s not easy handling 10 or so changing simultaneously.
 

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fnwc said:
Good riddance. Mordekainen's Disj... err... Mage's Disjunction is broken beyond all belief.
It is possible, that they repurposed Mordenkainen's Disjunction as a new spell, like a spell not stopping conjurations and zones, but rather all arcane effects or something like that.

Idly speculating, LT.
 

I suppose this Dispel magic will be taken if you have some advance knowledge about what opposition you face. It will be interesting to see if daily powers will be tiered as you advance in level; that is, if you can prepare more low level dailies than you can prepare high level ones. In that case, Dispel magic at level 6 can be used to destroy, for example, Bigby's hands at level 15. That seems like a nice trade off to me.

If dailies aren't tiered, I suspect Dispel magic will still be useful but much less so than today. I don't think it will be worthless; Dispel magic is such a central spell that I suspect WotC has put much focus on making it useful.
 

Falling Icicle said:
I'll take the long buffs and dispels any day. At least then when I modify my statistics to account for a buff that information is going to be good for a while.

Did you do much combat over 11th level in 3.5? During my session Sunday, a measly level 12 Cleric NPC had up to 10 buffs on him at a time, and my players were tossing out dispels like candy. I would've had to have a computer program to calculate his exact stats and bonuses at any moment; as it was I guessed and hoped I got within ±5 damage for everything he was giving and taking. If 4E has less of the darn buffs, I will rejoice.
 

baberg said:
The more I read it and think about it, the more I think you're correct. Having a power like that would be just way, way too overpowered. Storm one side of a room on turn 1, get a lucky Recharge roll, and then Storm the other half of the room on turn 2 to create a field in front of you for 1d10+4 every turn to everybody within range... yeah, way overpowered. I think you're right in the interpretation of "Damage, 1 round of uneven terrain, a second damage hit, then nothing" makes more sense.

And it's waaay easier in terms of bookkeeping. Just imaging having to track areas of a couple such spells for the whole battle. And here we have it simple:
1)Cast a spell - deal damage
2)Till the next wizards turn the area is difficult terrain (wizard's player tracks it telling everyone when needed to double the movement costs)
3)When his turn starts again everyone in area gets damaged again (at the start of turn, before any actions) and the spell ends.
 

First Sight:
Looks like a well designed power - easy to adjudicate, written to the point.

How useful it actually is remains to be seen. They only mentioned PC class powers as examples for conjurations and zones, so we don't know how many monsters will have such abilities. Though they seem to be likely for Leader and Controller type monsters, so it will probably come into play at higher levels in many encounters with spell-casting foes.

On Buffs:
I really wondered how the 4E buffs compare to 3E buffs in managability. I noticed a few things:
- 3E buffs are caster level dependent. Unfortunately, caster level isn't always fixed, and I (and the rest of my group) are often unorganized enough to not having the buff effects prewritten.
- 3E buffs often effect base statistics, which tend to adjust many effects.
- Many 3E buffs often last long enough to hold over at least one combat encounter. This usually means people don't have trouble to know what their statistics are when the buffs are active, but if something ends them, it gets complicated.
- Long term Buffs tend to be "fire & forget". The caster casts the buff spell, and then doesn't need to track it anymore. The recipient has to track its effect, until the time it is negated/dispelled and he is forced to figure out things like "which buff is on me? Which spell & caster level is it? What exact bonus did it have?"
- Other 3E buffs are only activated during combat (like Inspire Courage).
This all leads to you not having a clear "base" for your statistics. Do you use the pre-buffed stats? Do you use the un-buffed stats, and add up on that?
If I try to prestat all the possibilities, I usually end with a large matrix that doesn't really help at all, since I still have to go to the steps of determining row & column if something changes (which can happen each round). And usually the matrix doesn't cover all effects.

4E buffs - at least the ones I saw so far seem a lot simpler. They last one round, and provide a fixed benefit. Every round, the buffer leader has to decide which buff to apply, and to who, so it's next to guaranteed that everyone knows that he's buffed, and what benefit it grants him. The major benefit here seems to be that the amount of buffs active on each individual character is lower, and there are always two people thinking of the buff, and they only need to remember the information for one round.

Nostalgia for Long Spell Description:
One thing I liked about D&D (or at least 3E D&D) spells where the obscure and varied spells. I started gaming with Shadowrun, and the spells there are extremely formulaic and offer little room for special effects. A spell like Evards Black Tentacles (a spell made by a specific person?! Wooot!) would look strange - but in a very fascinating and compelling way. Spells that offered multiple effects, had several uses, spells like Mordekainens Faithful Watchdog or Private Sanctum are awesome.
Maybe I'll miss this stuff. But maybe I won't. The "Bigby's" spell are still in, and the effects of these spells might be described short and concise, but the flavor is still a lot stronger then "Manabolt Level 6""Stunbolt Level 5"*, "Trideo Illusion 4" or "Armor 2". ;)


*) fixed for 3E Shadowrun power-gaming purposes.
 
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Here are a few words I will use to describe how I still think this spell will always be flexible and useful:
Entangle
Bigby's anything
Web
Solid Fog
Evard's Black Tentacles (the 3.5 ones :) )
Acid Fog *shudder*
 
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thatdarnedbob said:
Did you do much combat over 11th level in 3.5? During my session Sunday, a measly level 12 Cleric NPC had up to 10 buffs on him at a time, and my players were tossing out dispels like candy. I would've had to have a computer program to calculate his exact stats and bonuses at any moment; as it was I guessed and hoped I got within ±5 damage for everything he was giving and taking. If 4E has less of the darn buffs, I will rejoice.

Word. The lvl 11 cleric in my campaign had 23 buffs running last combat. Sigh.
 

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