Dispel Magic

[Sir Brennen]

Here are a few words I will use to describe how I still think this spell will always be flexible and useful:
Entangle
Bigby's anything
Web
Solid Fog
Evard's Black Tentacles (the 3.5 ones )
Acid Fog *shudder*

Exactly.

Remember, the controller role is all about manipulating the battlefield. I think Zones and Conjurations will be the bread and butter of wizards, along with spells which damage multiple enemies a once like Fireball, especially as they go up in levels. Dispel Magic will be a very useful spell still, but not the nearly required one it is today.

As some of the developer's said last year after the announcement, we need to take off the 3E goggles when looking at the new rules. In 3E, the biggest bang for the buck for Dispel Magic was hitting a target that likely has multiple spells on him, whether it's a wizard with everything from Shield to Stoneskin, or a fighter piled on with buffs from the cleric.

In 4E, a spellcaster looks to be able to maintain a single spell on himself at a time comfortably, to a max of three if he does nothing else but just stand there - no attacks, not even movement. Plus, stat boost buffs, the biggest factor in making character's more effectice, are gone. There's simply less need to use Dispel Magic in the same way as it is today in 3E role. Now it's a controller spell, by removing someone else's magic that is influencing the battlefield. I wouldn't even call that a nerf, just a change in focus.

 

[Gentlegamer]

"Thuban"?!? That thounds thilly!

Thuban! He's a thobber! And a thapist!

 

[Wormwood]

Did you do much combat over 11th level in 3.5? During my session Sunday, a measly level 12 Cleric NPC had up to 10 buffs on him at a time, and my players were tossing out dispels like candy. I would've had to have a computer program to calculate his exact stats and bonuses at any moment; as it was I guessed and hoped I got within ±5 damage for everything he was giving and taking. If 4E has less of the darn buffs, I will rejoice.

Attached is the Excel sheet I made for tracking buffs in my last high-level 3.5 D&D game. This is not a joke, and is one of the primary reasons I ended up wishing 3.5 into the cornfield.

 

[frankthedm]

Ok, they got dispel right for 4E play, even if they got the concept wrong.

*******************************
Dear 4E Dispel Detractors,

One of the big changes to 4E was that not every party is expected to have caster capable of specific spells anymore. Just like a healer / Cleric is much less needed, so should dispel magic be a ''Nice thing to have sometimes" rather than a "Have it or be screwed" spell that shows up on the majority of spell lists just to make sure the party has it.
*******************************
EDIT

So Dispel Magic can't end Fly, Invisibility, etc. Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about the very limited scope of it quite yet. Of the level 10-16 spells, I only saw 3 of them that can be negated by dispel Magic.

Though compared to 3rd, most of those don’t need dispelling to be ‘dealt with’. Fly matters less since spell ranges are much shorter and ranged attacks are much better. ”Improved” Invisibility still ends if the recipient attacks. And dispelling a "save ends duration" is grossly unfair considering how short those are rigged to be.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

With these things in mind, we focused our attention on the spells and the prayers that create magical effects that last longer than 1 round. Some of those powers grant bonuses to or impose penalties on a target, but like 1-round effects, they aren't intended to be dispellable, and the game provides other ways of counteracting them

emphasize mine...

ok, that are important sentences: other powers that negate such things. Maybe an encounter power which disturbs concentration etc...

Also:

-I believe wizards can have as many dailies as they wish... but can only prepare a certain amount of attacks and utility type dailies when studying their spellbook. So he has flexibility to adjust his daily selection

-mordekainen´s disjunction will hopefully be a ritual. It was the most evil spell in 3.x: fighters had virtually no chance to retain their equipmment against a well buffed wizard. Making a permanent item is a ritual, destroying one should be too.

 

[kilpatds]

Attached is the Excel sheet I made for tracking buffs in my last high-level 3.5 D&D game. This is not a joke, and is one of the primary reasons I ended up wishing 3.5 into the cornfield.

I worked the buff tracker into the base character sheet... But it is a bit annoying requiring all the players bring a laptop just to run the sheet.

My excel sheet

When you have this, tracking Dispel Magic is pretty easy (go along the effect list on the main page, commenting out effects as they are dispelled). So I'm fine with 3.5's buff fest. But I understand not everyone has the time to manage a computer program to correctly calculate their numbers.

 

[Hussar]

One of the design goals that they seem to be trying to achieve is to remove any effect which grinds the game to a screeching halt. Whether it be someone with a menagerie of followers/pets or, now, dispel magic. Pushing the dispel button could mean that you spent the next half an hour trying to work out the actual effect.

Not that this ever happened in your game of course, because, you were all keen and on the ball.

But, for some poor schlub who isn't quite that shiny, dispel magic killed the momentum of an exciting encounter dead. And that's bad.

 

[Wormwood]

Not that this ever happened in your game of course, because, you were all keen and on the ball.

You just made my day. Thanks!

 

[Kraydak]

I do agree that 3.X dispel was a problem. Or, more precisely, it was complicated *in circumstances that were already complicated by other effects*. If you didn't have people megabuffing themselves, dispel posed no problem. 4e *may* have already solved the megabuffage issue (I'm very unconvinced that tons of very short duration buffs is less complicated), which means that dispel in its 3.X concept shouldn't pose any problems (any buffs it drops were already on their way out). The change to the easy of running dispel in 3.X and 4e *has nothing to do* with the change in the spell itself.

I would greatly appreciate it if the 4e devs start making 3.X/4e comparisons that make sense (frankly, it started feeling dishonest a while back). 3.X dispel was not 120 lines. 3.X dispel was complicated, *but* they "solved" (it had already been solved, elsewhere) that problem by *removing* it, not overhauling it. (4e's dispel is an entirely different beast).

Why shouldn't Dispel hit short duration effects? Why shouldn't it be able to suppress magic items (save ends, int vs wielder's will OR 10+item's level or some such)? Why shouldn't it be able to suppress rituals (int vs. caster's will at -5 for extra ritual strength)? Something like that would be a conversion of Dispel to 4e.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

i think a minor action encounter power would fit better to remove 1 round effects...