Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Voss]

I think a better, but similar defensive power would be this (which is admittedly a little rough, but this is off the top of my head):

Stay the Hand
encounter
Int vs Will
immediate action when an opponent attacks you or an ally.
(and whatever else I'm forgetting off the top of my head)
You mess with the mind of a foe, disrupting his attack.

Hit: the attack is negated. Powers are still considered to be used.
Miss: attacker takes a -[INT mod] to his attack roll


The miss may be too good and push it into daily territory. Needs a clause for bursts, so it only protects one target. But it isn't an outright negate (there is a chance you can fail), but at the same time, you never make it worse for yourself or your buddy.

 

[Dausuul]

However, one example based on what we do have:

Paladin's Shielding Smite. Per Encounter power.

1) This power does actual extra damage if it hits (nearly double).

2) This power gives a +3 AC bonus to an ally, even if the attack misses. +3 AC is similar in potency to re-roll (e.g. 50% chance to hit on a re-roll versus 35% chance to hit in the first place, the odds favor Displacement here somewhat). But, the +3 is for all attacks until the end of the Paladin's next turn, not just one attack. So, the odds could easily favor Shielding Smite more, situation depending.

But Displacement can be used in response to a specific attack. With Shielding Smite, the ball is in the enemy's court; he can hold off on using his own per-encounter powers until the Smite effect has worn off, or he can pick a different target. With Displacement, you can wait until the enemy busts out his big once-per-encounter move, then counter it. Or you can negate a crit (which Shielding Smite can never do).

The advantage to being able to pick your target like this is huge.

Furthermore, Displacement does not cost a standard action. If you want to compare these two, you need to include a 16th-level at-will attack power on the Displacement side.

 

[Puggins]

1) This power does actual extra damage if it hits (nearly double).

2) This power gives a +3 AC bonus to an ally, even if the attack misses. +3 AC is similar in potency to re-roll (e.g. 50% chance to hit on a re-roll versus 35% chance to hit in the first place, the odds favor Displacement here somewhat). But, the +3 is for all attacks until the end of the Paladin's next turn, not just one attack. So, the odds could easily favor Shielding Smite more, situation depending.

This is a 1st level Per Encounter Power as compared to a 16th level one. They are not directly comparable (Displacement might help against attacks that do not target AC), but Shielding Smite does do more. It's not just a single re-roll. It's possible that Shielding Smite will bloody or kill an opponent and help save an ally from multiple attacks all at the same time. Displacement at best stops one attack. At worse, it makes the attack more deadly.

And, Shielding Smite can be used for the first 15 levels of encounters whereas Displacement cannot. All in all, Shielding Smite is vastly more capable of affecting the outcome of encounters than Displacement is. And, this is just one example.

Your comparison with shielding smite leaves out a few crucial differences.

* Displacement is an immediate action, which means the wizard can throw something beefy in the same round- say scorching burst or magic missile. Thus, the fact that displacement doesn't have a damage component is somewhat immaterial- the wizard can complement it with a damaging attack.

* Displacement will always activate, while Shielding smite does nothing if the paladin misses the attack.

* Displacement will work for any attack, while Shielding Smite only covers attacks against Armor Class.

* Displacement will definitely be used at a beneficial time. Shielding Smite will go unused if the subject of the protection is not attacked. This is useful to deter attacks, probably, but if more than one target of value exists, the smite will be compromised in usefulness.

* The paladin must actually make an attack for shielding smite to work at all, which brings up problems of opportunity, where the paladin cannot make an attack and thus cannot provide the protective aura- if he is slowed or immobilized, for example.

Overall, I judge displacement to be a better power. Just how much better is a different matter- I simply have no idea, since I've played with neither. I will say that displacement does seem to be overleveled, but by how much remains to be seen.

 

[JosephK]

Luck domain, Swashbuckler class ability, a good chunk of the Complete Scoundrel feats (and PrC's) that allowed for a half dozen rerolls on virtually any type of roll, and possibly others I might have missed. In 3.5 at least, rerolling wasn't considered all that powerful.

Well, I'm not talking about rerolls in general, I'm talking about forcing your opponent to make a reroll.. It's a vastly different thing in practice, especially if you can do it after you know the result. Both the luck domain granted power and the swashbuckler power, only affect the stuff they themselves do.. Which is not even close to being as handy as forcing someone else to reroll. I havent seen complete scoundrel, but if you say they added alot of forced rerolls in there, I'll take your word for it. Point still stands though, in 3e (and 3.5) forcing rerolls have been exceptionally rare (fatespinner only gets it once per day), and for a good reason, I think. Imo it -is- a very good ability (though not game-breaking or anything, just plain good).

I still think that it's one of those abilities that doesnt look that good on paper (unlike a high AC build or whatever), but really can be a game-winner in practice... Mainly, as i said previously, because it's the player that controls when it kicks in. This also means it can be vasted of course. Like if the one attacking is almost sure to hit, or if it's used on a willy-nilly attack, but saving it for when someone is critting your friend (or yourself) or for when the BBEG unleashes his 'dastardly deadly attack of dooooooom'(tm), it can (possibly) make a real difference. I also think that people are forgetting that almost everything is based on attack rolls in 4e, that alone makes it more useful that the reroll abilities we know from 3e.

 

[Imban]

I'm not sure I understand the Greater Invisibility entry. Does sustaining the ability with a minor action mean that attacking no longer causes it to end? Because if that's the case, we now have our rules for how we get invisible stabby rogues.

As I read it, it lasts until the first of:
1) The target attacks.
2) The caster stops sustaining the power.

Which, er... I'm trying to figure out what the heck not-Greater Invisibility, given that 4e Greater is in essentially all ways worse than previous editions' normal Invisibility, and a Daily power to boot.

That leaves what for normal Invisibility, again? 1 round max? Sustain standard? Making you "kind of blurry, I guess"?

 

[KarinsDad]

Your comparison with shielding smite leaves out a few crucial differences.

* Displacement is an immediate action, which means the wizard can throw something beefy in the same round- say scorching burst or magic missile. Thus, the fact that displacement doesn't have a damage component is somewhat immaterial- the wizard can complement it with a damaging attack.

Like I said, they are not directly comparable. However, Shield Smite gives a defense without using up an immediate action, hence, allowing the Paladin to still use an immediate action in that round.

Shielding Smite is like using up an attack action plus gaining defensive benefits without using up an Immediate action to gain the defensive benefits.

* Displacement will always activate, while Shielding smite does nothing if the paladin misses the attack.

Not necessarily true. The Effect portion of Shielding Smite is not in the Hit section, hence, it implies that the AC bonus always occurs.

Also, Displacement activating is not a guarantee of success. It might help, it might not, it might makes things worse. The AC bonus does not ever make things worse.

* Displacement will work for any attack, while Shielding Smite only covers attacks against Armor Class.

Yes, I did mention that. Advantage Displacement.

* Displacement will definitely be used at a beneficial time. Shielding Smite will go unused if the subject of the protection is not attacked. This is useful to deter attacks, probably, but if more than one target of value exists, the smite will be compromised in usefulness.

Again, not necessarily true. For a 16th level Wizard with 50 hit points, using Displacement to stop 5 points of damage might NOT be a beneficial use. Or, stopping 5 points of damage on the Fighter might not affect the combat at all. The power states that Displacement can be used after the attack roll hits, not after the effects are specified.

Plus, Shielding Smite has the advantage that it can be used as a deterent. "Protect the Wizard Paladin!".

Just like Displacement is attempted to be used at beneficial times, so would the AC bonus of Shielding Smite.

* The paladin must actually make an attack for shielding smite to work at all, which brings up problems of opportunity, where the paladin cannot make an attack and thus cannot provide the protective aura- if he is slowed or immobilized, for example.

Not necessarily always true based on what we know so far. Can immediate actions be done, even if someone is immobilized?

Overall, I judge displacement to be a better power. Just how much better is a different matter- I simply have no idea, since I've played with neither. I will say that displacement does seem to be overleveled, but by how much remains to be seen.

Well yes, you skewed the information in Displacement's favor a bit before making that assessment.

We are making a bit of an apples and oranges comparison here, but the apple appears to have as many advantages as the orange. Not that the orange does not have different advantages, but not enough or powerful enough to be clearly better and significantly so. And definitely not 16th level better.

As far as we can tell, Shielding Smite grants a defensive benefit more often than Displacement. The difference between standard action and immediate action is mostly offset by the additional offensive capability of Shielding Smite. From an overall probability POV, Shielding Smite will be used more often and be effective more often.

And, that is just one example. Even if the general consensus is that Displacement is more useful than Shielding Smite, it does not mean that there are not other Per Encounter lower level powers that are as or more useful than Displacement.

 

[Cadfan]

You can't directly compare Shielding Smite with Displacement. The most simple reason is that they are different action types that happen to be compatible within the same turn.

What makes it awesome that Shielding Smite doesn't use up your immediate action? Well, the fact that you can now save your immediate action so that you can use effects like Displacement.

What makes it awesome that Displacement is an immediate action? The fact that you can save your regular actions so that you can use stuff like Shielding Smite.

That means that what you SHOULD compare is what you can get in a single round while expending a single per encounter ability.

If you use Shielding Smite, thats your per encounter ability. You probably don't have any at will immediate actions, I'm guessing, so that's pretty much all you get to compare, barring unusual circumstances.

If you use Displacement, that's a per encounter ability that costs an immediate action. You also get to use a regular At Will ability.

How do these measure up? Well, Shielding Smite deals damage, and gives +3 AC. Displacement + At Will Ability X gives you the benefit of the at will ability (probably damage) and a reroll.

Odds are the damage of Shielding Smite will beat your typical at will attack power. But, a reroll is vastly superior to +3 ac.*

So I'm calling it a wash. There are some further complexities related to how you can or cannot combine the different abilities with other daily, per encounter, at will, and item generated abilities, but overall I'm going to call it a wash.**

*Why vastly superior? Because the mathematical point where +3 AC is of about the same or better defensive value as a rerolled attack is if the target is presently being struck on approximately a 4+ or below, and that's WITHOUT the fact that you can choose whether to use displacement after you know whether your ally was hit, whether he got a critical, and what ability your foe chose to use for his attack. The value of Shielding Smite comes from its damage, not the AC boost.

**I agree that Displacement could have been made available at a lower level. Given that it is an auto scaling ability with a power level that automatically scales to match your foes, it technically could be made available at level 1. I'm just not much bothered by this. With a sufficiently robust scaling system, almost every power could be made available at level 1. But for better or worse that's not the system D&D uses.

 

[Goreg Skullcrusher]

Well, I'm not talking about rerolls in general, I'm talking about forcing your opponent to make a reroll.. It's a vastly different thing in practice, especially if you can do it after you know the result. Both the luck domain granted power and the swashbuckler power, only affect the stuff they themselves do.. Which is not even close to being as handy as forcing someone else to reroll. I havent seen complete scoundrel, but if you say they added alot of forced rerolls in there, I'll take your word for it. Point still stands though, in 3e (and 3.5) forcing rerolls have been exceptionally rare (fatespinner only gets it once per day), and for a good reason, I think. Imo it -is- a very good ability (though not game-breaking or anything, just plain good).

I still think that it's one of those abilities that doesnt look that good on paper (unlike a high AC build or whatever), but really can be a game-winner in practice... Mainly, as i said previously, because it's the player that controls when it kicks in. This also means it can be vasted of course. Like if the one attacking is almost sure to hit, or if it's used on a willy-nilly attack, but saving it for when someone is critting your friend (or yourself) or for when the BBEG unleashes his 'dastardly deadly attack of dooooooom'(tm), it can (possibly) make a real difference. I also think that people are forgetting that almost everything is based on attack rolls in 4e, that alone makes it more useful that the reroll abilities we know from 3e.

I agree with you that forcing rerolls is better than rerolling your own rolls. C.Sc does allow exactly that, several times a day (and fairly early on in level). The 4E Displacement power is obtained at 16th level, fully half-way through a PC's career. It stands to reason that it should be more powerful than something obtained several levels earlier. Just comparing the Paladin's different smites we see this incremental increase in power. The Displacement power seems like it could easily be worked as a first-level power; it's wholly unimpressive.

Good point about the multiple defenses. It means that rerolls can be made on spells and whatnot (though given the nerfed nature of spells it remains to be seen whether this is all that great)

 

[Khaim]

Like I said, they are not directly comparable. However, Shield Smite gives a defense without using up an immediate action, hence, allowing the Paladin to still use an immediate action in that round.

To do what, exactly? I don't think the pregen had any use for immediate actions. And even if he does, I think a standard action is much, much more valuable than an immediate action.

 

[Khaim]

It stands to reason that it should be more powerful than something obtained several levels earlier. Just comparing the Paladin's different smites we see this incremental increase in power. The Displacement power seems like it could easily be worked as a first-level power; it's wholly unimpressive.

My impression of the power curve is that it starts higher than in 3e, but has a much lower slope. In other words, gaining a level will always make you better, but not by a whole lot.