Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Incenjucar]

The thing with Mirror Image is that you have, for at one three attacks, a huge AC boost. It isn't a constant-use spell like Mage Armor, it's a spell that could easily make the first attack against you only hit on a 20, especially considering that Int adds to AC and wizards can, if they toss a feat or two down that path, wear armor and use shields.

Exactly how long would it be reasonable for a wizard to be hittable only on a crit?

That said, still no idea how it balances with anything else until we see the real, final rules.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Mirror Image was incredibly powerful for its spell tier.

It pretty much needed the nerf.

Exactly, 3.x Mirror image and Displacement could theoretically allow a Wizard to be harder to hit than a character with an infinite AC, although it practice they weren't quite that good, Mirror image in particular was overtly overpowered, as you would expect for the abilties of a class that only gets to use it's abilities 5 times per day.

4e Displacement seems fine, it provides a good "burst" defense while not being particularly helpful against extended attacks, that's exactly what Wizard defensive spells should be like. The problem I have with the 4e Mirror image is the wording (the fact that it doesn't work against attacks against other defenses), and perhaps the kobold thing. I don't otherwise have a problem with it, I'm not willing to look at these things and decide how powerful they are without looking at the abilties other characters have at these levels.

 

[Voss]

The flavor of displacement bothers me more than anything else. It isn't that your buddy was actually displaced, its that you made the attack miss in some way that doesn't make sense. Retroactivity is weird, unless some sort of time magic is involved... which this clearly isn't.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Isn't the 3.X wizard considered the most powerful class? Isn't the wizard considered so powerful he rendered the fighter and rouge useless? Wasn't there people who believed that the wizard needed to be nerfed?

Now that wizards are getting nerfed, people are complaining that it's a bad thing? Did you perfer the 3.X wizard?

 

[Delta]

There seems to be something wrong here to me.

You're seeing a symptom of why I wouldn't touch 4E with a 10-foot pole.

The spells in 3E took up, what, half the PHB? And those spells have been refined and playtested over literally 30+ years. You can pick out lots of specific language that was copy-and-pasted from 1E all the way through to 3E, with desired refinements.

Now here's 4E that's burned the entire system right to the ground (half the PHB by my count) and starting over from scratch. They're trying to rewrite ever single spell in a totally different power system. It's simply mandatory that it's going to have loads of balance and writing issues, without the benefit of 30 years of playtesting behind them. And it's a heck of a lot more content to fill in at once than, say, OD&D started out with.

It's a common issue in software, too -- in theory a clean code rewrite sounds spectacular, but commonly you wind up losing a lot of refinements. Example: Blog from last week on refactoring that points out, "The problem is that warty old code isn’t always just warty - it’s battle-scarred": http://basildoncoder.com/blog/2008/03/21/the-pg-wodehouse-method-of-refactoring/

Or this essay on "Why You Should Almost Never Rewrite Your Software": http://onstartups.com/home/tabid/33...hould-Almost-Never-Rewrite-Your-Software.aspx

 

[Henry]

Exactly, 3.x Mirror image and Displacement could theoretically allow a Wizard to be harder to hit than a character with an infinite AC, although it practice they weren't quite that good, Mirror image in particular was overtly overpowered, as you would expect for the abilties of a class that only gets to use it's abilities 5 times per day

On the other hand, I can't even see why I would bother taking the mirror image spell over, say, the resistance spell, especially at 10th level, when you're bound to be hit by more frequent energy attacks, if the sample monsters are to judge. It really doesn't do much for you that a healing surge, to counter the damage, wouldn't do, because it really isn't going to make you harder to hit. At worst, it will make an enemy waste one action on you.

The Displacement, I can possibly see, though it could spell the enemy getting a critical hit on you! That doesn't seem right.

 

[Dausuul]

The flavor of displacement bothers me more than anything else. It isn't that your buddy was actually displaced, its that you made the attack miss in some way that doesn't make sense. Retroactivity is weird, unless some sort of time magic is involved... which this clearly isn't.

I also dislike retroactive narrative, but in this case I think it's okay--the two events are so close together that you can handwave cause and effect. You see that your friend is in a position where he's wide open to attack, and in a fraction of an instant you create an illusion that diverts the enemy.

 

[Henry]

Now that wizards are getting nerfed, people are complaining that it's a bad thing? Did you perfer the 3.X wizard?

That's a question for another thread entirely. In our games, they were only played by one person at most per group, because most people didn't like that when you caught them unawares, they were toast. In keeping with 4e, they seem to be a bit tougher on the low end, but to compensate seem weaker on the higher end.

I suppose it's because we don't have anything higher or lower to compare to, but for the equivalent of mid-levels, these do seem like awfully weak defensive spells. I would expect a re-roll at "heroic", but paragon tier?

 

[Cadfan]

I suppose it's because we don't have anything higher or lower to compare to, but for the equivalent of mid-levels, these do seem like awfully weak defensive spells. I would expect a re-roll at "heroic", but paragon tier?

A reroll is equally powerful regardless of character level.

 

[Gargazon]

On the other hand, I can't even see why I would bother taking the mirror image spell over, say, the resistance spell, especially at 10th level, when you're bound to be hit by more frequent energy attacks, if the sample monsters are to judge. It really doesn't do much for you that a healing surge, to counter the damage, wouldn't do, because it really isn't going to make you harder to hit. At worst, it will make an enemy waste one action on you.

The Displacement, I can possibly see, though it could spell the enemy getting a critical hit on you! That doesn't seem right.

You must have a different monsters file, because most of the level 10-ish creatures I have in the .pdf taken from this website are dealing physical damage. I think whether or not energy attacks will be seen is purely up to the nature of the actual encounter, and nothing to do with what level you're at. I imagine at 30th level an Earth Titan is smashing your party with its fists, not using fireballs and lightning strikes (though I can see some thuder attacks being caused by stomping). In such a difficult encounter Resistance would be pretty much useless, but you could use Mirror Image to stop the Earth Titan smashing you with its fist.

Mirror Image is a situational power, just like Resistance. Taking one is helping you get out of a tight spot where you would benefit from the said power. No clever wizard is going to use Mirror Image at the start of the fight, or when he's got the ogre next to him but the Cleric's still up and healing, and the Fighter is rushing over to help. Nor when the party is fighting a troupe of wizards. He's going to use it when the Cleric is lying in a bloody pool and the Fighter is in the Titan's stomach. It's Daily - it's not something you throw away when four kobold minions knock down your door.