Pathfinder 1E Displacer Serpents and Lightning Bolt

[brunswick]

Hiya folks,

I was running a game the other night and the party encountered 3 displacer serpents (50% miss chance when using ranged or melee attacks against them). The wizard fired a lightning bolt at one of the creatures and both he and another player said that this wouldnt be subject to the miss chance because even though a range is listed for the spell, its an area effect and therefore would work normally against the serpent. The two players generally know their stuff but I'm unsure if they're right on this occasion. What do you think?

Cheers,



Brunswick.

 

[frankthedm]

In d20, displacement doesn't change the square you occupy. Bolt connects because it is an area effect.

Miss chance works against ranged touch attacks though.

 

[brunswick]

Thanks FranktheDM.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Yep, what FranktheDM said.

(This is where the 4E categorisations of attacks is very helpful.)

 

[Salthorae]

You are the DM however brunswick... if you wanted to go old school where Displacement actually meant that the creature only appeared to be in that square, but was actually a square to the right/left/front/back that is YOUR call, not the rules!

To determine the true position of the displacer beast and its illusion, roll 1d10. On 1-5, the illusion is in front of the creature, 6-7 to the creature's left, 8-9, to the right. On 10, the illusion is behind the beasts actual position. Although this ability is magical, the beast's location can not be determined by dispel or detect magic. Only true seeing will reveal its position.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

You are the DM however brunswick... if you wanted to go old school where Displacement actually meant that the creature only appeared to be in that square, but was actually a square to the right/left/front/back that is YOUR call, not the rules!

... except they're playing 3.xE and it would be a bit of a dick move on the part of the DM to use 2E rules to screw with what the social contract at his table believes displacement means... and which happens to happily coincide with the 3.xE rules they are using.

And, even if the DM decided that some monsters in 3.xE should be run according to the 2E rules, the lightning bolt would still hit the beastie because it's an area effect.

 

[Thotas]

Yeah, when you occupy a 5 ft square in 3e/Pf, it doesn't mean you're a 5 foot cube. Check the "squeeze" rules of movement, for example, or even the fact that you can move through an occupied friendly square. Even if you apply the 2e rule, it doesn't mean you aren't still in the square.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Yeah, when you occupy a 5 ft square in 3e/Pf, it doesn't mean you're a 5 foot cube. Check the "squeeze" rules of movement, for example, or even the fact that you can move through an occupied friendly square. Even if you apply the 2e rule, it doesn't mean you aren't still in the square.

Yep, and the 2E rule also displaced the creature by only 2' so less than half a square... in a system that didn't even use squares.

Hmmm, the idea of using a 2E rule in 3.xE is making less and less sense.

 

[Salthorae]

Wow, [MENTION=87576]Scrivener of Doom[/MENTION] your replies read with a lot of attitude.

It was a suggestion, the OP can take it or leave it. It was noted as 2e and a possible different way to interpret Displacement.

It's possible for different things called "displacement" to work in different ways... it's a freaking fantasy world of MAGIC. Not everything has to make codified sense to the players, just the DM. If you want an in game explanation, say the magic of the displacement spell gets you the 50% miss chance, but it's the closest that the spell developers can come to the natural displacement of some creatures...

Either way it was a suggestion to help him rationalize if he wanted to still allow his Displacement Snakes to get their 50% miss chance even on the Line AoE of Lightning Bolt should he so desire.

I agree, RAW the line AoE would effect the snakes w/o the 50% miss chance, but the DM has final say on the rules in his game too. If he thinks displacement snakes should get their 50% miss chance vs the lightning bolt spell, I was just reminding him that he had options and other reasons to support that should he want it.

EDIT: the 2e Displacer Beast appeared "some 3 feet from it's actual location" per the Monstrous Manual. It wasn't exactly 2' or 3' or 5'... somewhere around 3', just for clarity.

 

[Squire James]

I'd give the displacers a +4 to their Reflex save, but no miss chance. The bolt is 5 ft wide... so while the critter doesn't occupy the whole square the bolt usually does. Actually, I use a tape-measure for these things. If part of their miniature is covered by the tape measure and within 24 inches on the map, the bolt gets them. There's usually not much trouble getting at least 3 in one of those if the caster knows what he's doing.