Divination without casting a spell.

[johnsemlak]

I'm currently pplaying a wizard/diviner and trying to style my character as an uber diviner of sorts, grabbing all divination spells possible.

I got to wondering, wouldn't it be possible for a diviner to be able to do some things without casting a spell. For example, if my character is capable of divining by watching bird flight patterns, should he have to cast a spell to learn something, or can he just observe birds and receive some sort of omen.

Of course, one would assume that this would require a skill check or something, but still, can it be done without spellcasting? Any DMs allow this or have rules for it?

 

[Umbran]

I got to wondering, wouldn't it be possible for a diviner to be able to do some things without casting a spell. For example, if my character is capable of divining by watching bird flight patterns, should he have to cast a spell to learn something, or can he just observe birds and receive some sort of omen.

Only if, for some reason, the patters of birds (or tea leaves, or the fall of tarot cards, the position of the stars, or what have you) actually means something in the world you're working in.

Most GMs I know would avoid putting actual power into such things in a D&D game. When real magic works, it really should be much more powerful and reliable than more mundane methods. Or, another way of thinking of it is that the divinations spells *are* the D&D world's version of tea leaves. Just as in some other world a sensitive might take time and effort to learn to read the leaves, your character has taken the time and effort to learn the "arcane spells"...

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, well you could tell that it's winter cuz the birds are flying south.

I think giving extra powers to pcs with no cost is a horrible idea in general. I wouldn't do it. However, you might try taking some kind of divining feat or something if your dm's amenable to the idea... run it by him.

As I said, I'd never allow you to replace spells for free, and I think even a feat might be pretty low-cost, depending on what you wanna be able to do with it.

 

[LostSoul]

The best way to do it would probably be to use a Psion Clairsentient (Seer, I think) and pick up the Trigger Power feat for use with Augury, Divination, and Inkling. Or you could take levels of Metamind, and when you hit 10th you gain the ability to Trigger all 1st level powers.

But since you're using a Wizard, that's not going to work.

You could ask your DM to allow you to take some kind of feat or prestige class that allows you to make divinations (as Augury or Divination) with some kind of check (level check, Wis check, whatever).

 

[johnsemlak]

Of course, I'm not just talking about watching bird patters here, I just gave that as an example, In this thread, I was gving many, many different kinds of divination, some of which you migh tthink out to work without actually spending a spell.

Astrology, palmreading, etc.

I agree the character must spend something to get any abiliteis..what about skill points (iknowlege astrology for example). Are such skills detailed anywhere? Would each tiype of divination be a separate skill? Or are feats a better way to go?

 

[Tonguez]

I'd allow the birds, leaves, palm etc be the material component of a divinition spell but bump the level up.

In otherwords the Diviner spends the 10 mins (Casting Time) looking at the tea leaves and from that gets the answer - they spell is used but the flavors different...

 

[Impeesa]

Rolemaster's Mentalism Companion has a very interesting divination system based on a single skill. You can get a flawless d20 conversion by dividing all the modifiers by 5.

 

[Steverooo]

LA has a Divinations skill. It uses a percentile system, but for each 10%, you get another method of divination, of your choice. To use one, you must expend AEPs (spell points), and then make a successful percentile roll less than your skill, and it is only usable so many times per day...

In D20, one divination method per 2 Ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), with each attempt using a spell slot of a level equal to whatever spell you're casting (similar to a Cleric's or Druid's spontaneous casting). If you make your roll (DC 15 + Spell Level), you get a proper augury. If not, the omens are ambiguous.

You like that? It certainly is not something for nothing, and, in fact, you will find it better (easier for the PC) to have the proper spell memorized... BUT, if they don't, they can still "spontaneously" use up a spell slot to cast any divination spell, IF they make the Knowledge (Arcana) roll to "interpret the resulting omens".

Also, note that the forms of divination methods can be important, as well. No pyromancy without a fire, no cartomancy without your deck, no ornithomancy without birds, etc. Choose your methods wisely!

Assuming you begin at first level, with four ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), you'd have two methods. I'd reccommend Bibkiomancy (with your spell book), and crystallomancy (with the reusable focus for Read Magic), unless you have a cat familiar, and want to take Ailuromancy, or the GM rules that Batraqomancy also applies to toads, and you take one of them. In the future, as you take new methods, be sure to consider where and when they will be useful... Aeromancy and Astronomancy are useless underground, for instance.

 

[jmucchiello]

Well, bird watching sounds more like Knowledge (nature) to me. I would certainly allow such a thing to work about as well as a weak augury except that the answer would always be plain to see. The skill check would be your attempt to figure out the proper question. Model this on the Innuendo skill. IOW, nature is always trying to tell us something, you just have to know how to read between the lines.

Just about all Divination based on nature (bird movements, weather, dowsing for water, etc) are Knowledge (nature). You might use Knowledge (arcana) for astrological Divination. And of course, reading the entrails of animals (or other death reading) would be Knowledge (religion).

If you require a gateway feat to get access to these types of Divination, then successful skill checks should be as powerful as 1st-3rd level spells.

Now to go bookmark that other thread as "research".

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm currently pplaying a wizard/diviner and trying to style my character as an uber diviner of sorts, grabbing all divination spells possible.

I got to wondering, wouldn't it be possible for a diviner to be able to do some things without casting a spell. For example, if my character is capable of divining by watching bird flight patterns, should he have to cast a spell to learn something, or can he just observe birds and receive some sort of omen.

Of course, one would assume that this would require a skill check or something, but still, can it be done without spellcasting? Any DMs allow this or have rules for it?

I think you can go without rules and leave it to RP only: you cast a Divination that perhaps has casting time 10minutes, you can say that you are setting fire to some sticks and watching the remaining ashes, or looking at the clouds shapes in the sky or the star position at the moment. To not hinder the player, let him choose one way or the other for same spell depending on the circumstance (so that he cast the spell even if he can't see the sky or doesn't have sticks to light up).

That's if you just like the flavor of the thing. If you actually want to implement some extras to the rules, you can invent some circumstances that increase some spell effects but incurs in extra cost (typically extra material components or casting time), or other circumstances where costs are lessened but so are the effects or chance to succeed. But at this point the possibilities are endless...