Divine caster with no god

[Oryan77]

I seem to remember reading about how a Cleric gets his spells when he doesn't worship a deity. Wasn't there a chapter in the PHB or DMG that talked about this? All I can find is a brief mention of it in the PHB but it doesn't go into any detail.

I don't really see how a Cleric can get spells if he's not praying for a god to grant them. I have 2 players that both made clerics. They couldn't find a deity that granted the 2 domains they each wanted so they chose not to worship a deity. I'm getting enough powergaming going on as it is and this just ruffles my feathers a bit. I'd rather them put together a good character concept rather than sacrificing flavor in order to powergame.

I want the players to be happy with their characters, but I would also like to make sense of it myself. And I just can't convince myself as to why a religious man can gain powers from the gods when he doesn't worship a god. What's the point of possessing a holy symbol if it's not a symbol of a particular god?

 

[Question]

I believe its called worshipping a concept. Im not sure just where the powers come from though.

 

[kenobi65]

By the RAW, yes, a divine spellcaster doesn't need to worship a particular god.

But, I've seen a fair number of game worlds (e.g., Forgotten Realms) in which this was not the case.

If you, as the DM, don't like it, don't allow it. You even have precedent on your side.

 

[Bad Paper]

Throw that bit out. I require every "religious" (not nature) divine caster to worship a god.

I even saw someone shop around the obscure deities until he found the right fit. (almost chose Apollo, settled on Azor'alq). Make up a deity if you have to (if it's got the War domain, choose a really silly domain weapon like Club or Gauntlet to frustrate those munchkins).

 

[Someone]

That sounds like a bad case of powergaming.

That particular point of the rules, clerics not worshipping any god, annoys many people, and many other find it totally normal; there are, after all, real world religions without gods.

A character could worship many gods at once, or an overarching concept: instead of worshipping a good god, -who isn´t omniscient nd can make errors- a character can worship the Supreme Good, the idea of it, and get powers from that faith. These are just examples. And remember that this is the default for paladins: they don´t get their powers from any god.

However, I wouldn´t allow it as an excuse for cherry picking domains. The player still has to define a coherent concept for the philosophy they follow, justify the domains granted based on that, and be as determined following those ideals as they should be following a god´s dogma.

 

[werk]

I like godless clerics personally, and play one in Eberron. As Kenobi points out, some settings forbid this, requiring a diety, Forgotten Realms being foremost of these.

The primary reason to allow godless clerics is to allow the player to pick domains as they like, rather than being forced to pick from a very exclusive list, as you have pointed out. I wouldn't pigeonhole it as powergaming, but feel free to cast aspusions as you like.

The ability to do this is in the cleric class description, under dieties, domains, and domain spells: "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies."

Not being devoted to a particular diety is my kind of distinction, in that it is an 'A or not A' argument. Either the cleric is devoted to one diety, or he is not. Not being devoted to one diety can be interpreted different ways, but includes no diety worship at all as well as multiple diety worship, as in a pantheon or some such, usually to the same result.

As for your other, more vague questions, I can come up with several fluffy answers to each, but they are fairly moot...either it's allowed by the DM or not, justifications of 'why' don't have bearing on the decision.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I wouldn't pigeonhole it as powergaming, but feel free to cast aspusions as you like.

I would pigeonhole it as a powergaming, but I don't think that's an aspersion. Powergaming is not inherently bad. The primary reason you mention literally defines it as powergaming. How could it be anything else? It is flavorless IMO to merely choose two domains without a deity (not diety, unless it's the goddess of anorexia nervosa).

 

[Question]

What is the downside to letting players choose domains as he likes?

 

[werk]

I would pigeonhole it as a powergaming, but I don't think that's an aspersion. Powergaming is not inherently bad. The primary reason you mention literally defines it as powergaming. How could it be anything else? It is flavorless IMO to merely choose two domains without a deity (not diety, unless it's the goddess of anorexia nervosa).

I guess it really depends on the domains picked. The best reason for wanting to pick your own domains is that the deity your character concept would worship isn't on the list of deities offered by your DM. And creating your own deity (to add to the list) is, in effect, the same thing as not worshiping a deity and picking your own domains.

I wanted a cleric of 'The Archery God'. Lacking an archery god, I worship no god and have chosen domains that would have been offered by Him. Theme driven, not power driven.

 

[werk]

What is the downside to letting players choose domains as he likes?

Happy Players.