Divine caster with no god

[Voadam]

Godless cleric examples

1 jedi
2 pantheon worshippers (I'm the priest of the gods, I give worship and propitiation as required).
3 think Taoist monk (the varieties that don't incorporate deity worship). There is divinity, but not a specified deity. Many martial arts movies have this archetype ("I am guided by the will of heaven").
4 Make them specific magical orders that tap divine (not god) energy with specific alignment geases.

 

[Nail]

I would pigeonhole it as a powergaming, but I don't think that's an aspersion. Powergaming is not inherently bad. The primary reason you mention literally defines it as powergaming. How could it be anything else? It is flavorless IMO to merely choose two domains without a deity (not diety, unless it's the goddess of anorexia nervosa).

"How could it be anything else?"

That sounds like speculating about someone's thought processes to me. :\

As a player who's played a cleric without a deity, I can tell you my own motivations: I didn't want to play a PC who worshipped a god. Simple.

 

[Nail]

Ooooh, good examples, Voadam.

 

[irdeggman]

I seem to remember reading about how a Cleric gets his spells when he doesn't worship a deity. Wasn't there a chapter in the PHB or DMG that talked about this? All I can find is a brief mention of it in the PHB but it doesn't go into any detail.

I don't really see how a Cleric can get spells if he's not praying for a god to grant them. I have 2 players that both made clerics. They couldn't find a deity that granted the 2 domains they each wanted so they chose not to worship a deity. I'm getting enough powergaming going on as it is and this just ruffles my feathers a bit. I'd rather them put together a good character concept rather than sacrificing flavor in order to powergame.

The same way as do clerics who worship a deity.

PHB pg 179

Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. Dawn, dusk, noon, and midnight are common choices. Some deities set the time or impose other special conditions for granting spells to their clerics. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Nothing says that the prayer must be to a specific deity only that some deities set the time or impose special conditions for granting spells to their clerics.

I want the players to be happy with their characters, but I would also like to make sense of it myself. And I just can't convince myself as to why a religious man can gain powers from the gods when he doesn't worship a god. What's the point of possessing a holy symbol if it's not a symbol of a particular god?

Complete Divine pgs 5-6 talks about “What do you serve?”, which contains some good information about this. Basically you can have a pantheon or a philosophy or belief system” That is what it comes down to really, defining the philosophy that gives the cleric the 2 domains chosen.

PHB pg 30

Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church hierarchy.

PHB pg 32

Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Typically, this hour is at dawn or noon for good clerics and at dusk or midnight for evil ones. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.


If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.


Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god (generally by acting in ways opposed to the god’s alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201).

The same logic applies when having paladins who serve a cause rather than a deity.

Now while the information on ex-clerics specifically talks about a god, IMO, this can easily (and should) be extended to cover a philosophy. Basically IMO a cleric who doesn't serve a god needs a code of conduct that is consistent with his domains, alignment and behaviour.

 

[Oryan77]

Thanks guys, very helpful from both sides of the argument.

I allow players to choose from any god from any 3.5 WotC book. So they have plenty of options. One player already said he wanted to worship a god that is against slavery and he found a god who hates slavery. But he wanted 2 particular domains and the god only grants one that he wanted. So he chose not to worship a god.

That's just powergaming. Nothing wrong with powergaming because I encourage players to build the best PC's they can, but I also encourage roleplaying and creating flavor for their characters (which is more important to me). In this case, he's building his flavor around his abilities rather than building abilities around his character's flavor.

I think I'll require them both to pick deities to cut back on the pure powergaming.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I've only had a player ask to worship a concept rather than a deity once. It took me a couple sessions to figure out his angle: by not worshipping a deity, he didn't feel he had to worry about all those religious responsibilities/tenets that clerics normally have to deal with. Basically, he wanted all the perks without any of the work.

Never again IMC.

 

[MarkB]

I think the important thing in such a case, especially if you're wary of this option, is to require the player to properly define the concept that he worships - maybe in a sentence or two, maybe in an extended paragraph if you prefer - and then stick to that concept. The concept needs to be one to which both the player's domain choices can be sensibly related.

For a godless cleric to gain divine powers, they need to be pretty focused in what they believe, so it's not unreasonable to require the players to describe the concept and then stick to it. Depending on exactly what it is, you might even assign the concept an appropriate alignment, and enforce alignment restrictions as though it were a deity.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think the important thing in such a case, especially if you're wary of this option, is to require the player to properly define the concept that he worships

I agree 100%. When the player continually made up excuses about why he hadn't done his "homework", that was the final straw.

 

[Nail]

FWIW, my "god-less" cleric )) tithed regularly, and eventually converted all of the PCs to his religion. Starting at about 12th level my PC used the accumulated wealth to build a temple, found a town, and spread the faith.

Being a well-played cleric does not require a god.

 

[Infiniti2000]

As a player who's played a cleric without a deity, I can tell you my own motivations: I didn't want to play a PC who worshipped a god. Simple.

That's fine. So, tell me what you do want to worship and then I'll choose appropriate domains.

That, of course, ruins the reason for these players not choosing a deity in the first place. Thus, why this example is pigeonholed.